Apartment loads...

[Epyon]

Haven't posted in a long time, but it's good to be back. Okay here's my situation, I will soon be getting a Remington 870 Express 12 gauge 18" barrel for home defense. The problem is, I have neighbors on all sides of me except my front door and below me. The maximum distance I would be able to shoot is about 200-300 feet. I've considered getting #4 buckshot because as much as I'd love 00 and slugs I know I have to watch out for neighbors around me. My dilemma is will hunting loads vs. personal defense loads make much difference? I'm mainly concerned about over-penetrating walls. Also, I think I've narrowed my brands down to Hornady, Federal, Winchester, and Remington. I don't know much about Fiocchi so if anyone could give me some info on their quality I'd appreciate it. I'm all ears for recommendations, thank you kindly everyone!

[zippy13]

The maximum distance I would be able to shoot is about 200-300 feet.

Yikes, that's one huge apartment!!! Most interior HD shots are less than one tenth that distance. Because of the neighbors, in your situation, I'd opt for a handgun with frangible bullets for HD. Using anything that penetrates the party walls may have significant civil and/or criminal repercussions.

[VA Gent]

I'll go along with that! I'm in a 3800 sq ft home and my hall is 28 ft max. I'm using a Mossberg 500 with #6 Winchester ( and a 12 G Heavy in a shorty ) among others but thats for another time...point is, 28 feet is all I have to work with.

[RWBlue01]

Please google "box of truth".

Pretty much anything that will drop a person has the potential to zip through walls. Ever wonder why SWAT teams have switched over from 9mm sub guns and shotguns to AR-15s? The exception is very fast light varmint rounds. These varmint rounds will still zip through the walls if you miss your target, but because of weight, velocity....they come though in a form that is less likely to kill someone.


Handgun with frangible bullets will not fragment significantly as they go through dry wall.

Shotgun, with bird shot is not a killer load.

[ADB]

Shotgun, with bird shot is not a killer load.

A shotgun firing birdshot IS a killer load and can easily be fatal out to 100 feet or more. Saying anything else is inaccurate. Former VP Cheney almost accidentally killed a man with a light dove load who was, according to witnesses, 90 to 120 feet away.

Epyon, I would suggest in your situation that you find yourself a good backstop--say, find defensive position you would want, then at the end of your line of fire, put a nice heavy wood bookshelf filled with a bunch of old novels you wouldn't mind replacing. That should stop most forms of shot, or at least slow them down to the point where they're no longer going to be too much of a danger.

[idek]

Having only 3 posts to my name, I don't know how seriously my input will be taken, but I'd tend to agree with RWBlue on this one.

Bad guys are generally tougher than apartment walls (we could only hope they're 78 year-olds like the guy Cheney shot). If a projectile won't penetrate walls, it may not penetrate deep enough to quickly stop an attacker either. Yes, birdshot can and has killed people before, but not necessarily quickly and not as reliably as buckshot. Is a 50%, 60%, or 70% success rate with birdshot good enough when your life is on the line? If an attacker is fatally wounded, but lives long enough to shoot you, have you really defended yourself?

If you use a shotgun, I'd stick with buckshot. Premium Federal buckshot with the FlightStopper wad has a good reputation for giving tight patterns in most guns.

...And yes, the "box of truth" has good stuff.

[RWBlue01]

ADB, blanks kill people, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend using blanks for personal protection.

The same thing is true when you look at the gel tests for bird shot.

This is not to say that you would WANT to get shot with bird shot.
This is not to say that you would not eventually die from being shot with bird shot.

From the Box of truth website.
We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

[Charles Ellis]

My HD shotgun is loaded with Federal 2 3/4 in mag #4 buckshot,but I don't live in an appartment.The longest shot I could make inside my house is about 30 feet and at that range #4 buck should work just fine.(I hope I never find out)If I lived in an appartment I would load up with a large size birdshot 2's or 4's.A compromise load is always going to fall short of ideal in some area of performance.It would in my opinion be better to err on the side of safety,especially the safety of the 5 year old child in the next appartment.No one is going to take a hit from a load of large diameter birdshot at house ranges and ignor it.At close ranges,even the rubber buckshot is leathal.

[hardworker]

Birdshot may not be the most effective killer, but I'd be a large sum of money that it is an instant fight stopper at HD ranges. Who's gonna keep advancing when they get a baseball sized hole blown through an inch of chest muscle? If birdshot doesn't leave you feeling warm and cozy, go to wal-mart and buy some 2 3/4 no. 4 shot. Brand isn't that important. It all does the same thing in a HD situation.

[scorpion_tyr]

I love a good 12 gauge for SD, but in this situation with neighbors on all sides of you, you might want to look at different options.

I would look at a 20 gauge. Not entirely sure, but I'm guessing there's some 20 gauge loads that might fit your needs.

A handgun, and lot's of practice.

No matter what you chose though you're going to have to make darn sure you hit your target so practice practice practice! I personally might go for a handgun since there will only be one projectile at a time.

[Win1200]

my HD weapon - winchester 1200, 18" cyl. bore barrel, 6 round mag... i load in 3 7 1/2 oz birdshot and 3 00 buckshot. the three birdshots are good for a warning and making swiss cheese out of my assailant. buckshot is there if all else fails.

[S_Constitutionist]

Why a 20g? The pellets are moving just as fast- there are just fewer of them.


I use #4 buck in my apartment, but no one lives in the apartment that would be in the path of shots I may need to take. If that changes, I will switch to Remington's BB HD load. If that doesnt work, the pistol sits right behind the shotgun for a reason.

Having a good light mounted on the weapon and training in low-light will help mitigate much of the risk, IMO.

[ADB]

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there.

Anonymous fifth-hand anecdotes mean nothing to me. I've heard similarly unverifiable anecdotes about accidents with birdshot at short range going clean through a man's torso. Neither means anything objectively. However, what is objective is 8 inches of penetration in ballistic gel, as well as a long history of hunting accidents speak for themselves. I use the Cheney accident because it's a well documented one that people are aware of--from 90 to 120 feet away, shot penetrated as far as touching the victim's heart. That's substantial damage. Now imagine it ten times closer.

My point, as always, is this: at home defense ranges, any kind of 12 gauge load is going to be fatal. Any kind of 12 gauge load is also going to go through walls like nobody's business. That's why combining a good backstop and an appropriate shot size is the best approach to controlling penetration.

[markj]

I was shot in upper left shoulder from behind with 7.5 shot. Bent me over was 10 ft away, still carry some lead in teh area today was 40 years ago. Now if it was number 2 copper plated like I use on geese, might have ended worse off. Not 2 ought buck, no 2 shot not as heavy but will spank ya hard. I used copper plated so I could tell my shot birds from others that "claimed" they "got it"

[noyes]

Wonder if the bad guy would choose bird shot over 00 or 000 buck , if he comes to visit..... out gunned ?

[Epyon]

There is only one direction to enter the apartment, in front the front door there is a solid concrete wall. There is only one window and it faces the same direction as the door, only it opens out to a large empty field. I already have a .40 cal handgun; the shotgun is just a new addition to the family. Obviously when I get moved into an actual house I'll change up my loads. Still taking into consideration what everyone has said so far.

[zippy13]

Epyon,
As you can see from the diverse opinions expresses, selecting an appropriate HD gun and ammo is not a simple task. It may not be possible until after you develop and drill your various home defense plans. Only then will you have an accurate idea of possible penetration points.

[idek]

It seems to me that a lot of people think of birdshot's effectiveness based on a direct shot to the chest. I've never had to shoot at anyone before, but I don't imagine too many defense situations would present easy, broadside shots at the bad guy's vitals.

More realistically, it will be dark, the intruder will be moving, and odds are good his torso won't be squared up to you. This means he won't be an easy target, and your shot may be more likely to hit an arm or shoulder than flush in the chest.

It's also very possible the intruder could be shooting at you, making that perfect shot far more difficult for you.

I don't doubt that big birdshot could kill quickly with perfect shot placement, but I very much doubt that perfect shot placement is the norm in defense situations. If a shot needs to punch through an arm in order to reach the vitals, birdshot will come up short.

As for trying to scare off an intruder with birdshot, that may work sometimes. Other times it may not. We've all heard of "fight or flight." Something that makes one person turn tail and run will make another come on more aggressively. An average intruder probably leans toward the aggressive side to begin with, and it's very possible he could be under the influence of drugs or alcohol and would not react in rational ways. I wouldn't want to risk my life on the assumption he'll chose the "flight" option.

[scorpion_tyr]

8 inches of penetration in ballistic gel

You do realize that that's not a good thing when it comes to SD/HD right?

[R1145]

Everything is a trade-off.

The main thing is to make sure you hit whatever you shoot at, of course, and that you are justified in using lethal force. This moots the need for further argument in nearly all cases.

I used to load my shotgun with #4 shot when I lived in an apartment. I never had to put it to the test, but it gave me peace of mind.

I stick to 00 buck now (with slugs in the side-saddle), but I live in a house with no close neighbors.

Birdshot might not do the job, but if you're more worried about over-penetration, using it might be an acceptable risk.

I've thought about this more. If you shoot someone in your house, it would probably be someone armed and coming at you at very close range. You need to dump them with one shot: Use 00 buck and make sure you don't miss.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Epyon, here is the problem as I see it. Any round that meets the FBI minimum criteria for defensive use is going to penetrate into your neighbor's apartments (and quite possibly THEIR neighbor's apartment as well) if you completely miss the target.

One solution is to use very light rounds that do not penetrate drywall. The problem with this approach is that you may only use lethal force to defend yourself from an immediate threat of death or serious injury. Very light rounds, such as birdshot, do not penetrate bad guys any better than they penetrate drywall - as a result, they may not penetrate deep enough to cause a physiological stop (the attacker stops because he physically cannot continue to attack). This leaves you in the awkward position of having to rely on that same someone who just threatened your life in your own apartment suddenly changing their mind.

The best answer to this problem is not to miss your target - this not only helps with stopping the threat quickly, it also means you can use more effective loads without endangering your neighbors. Unfortunately, always making a hit is easier said than done.

My advice would be:

1. Get professional training from a qualified instructor on self-defense with the firearm of your choice. Not only will this help you make the hits should that situation arise, in the event a bystander is injured, it can help show that you went the extra mile to exercise your rights responsibly and non-negligently.

2. Take some time to establish and examine likely lanes of fire in your apartment. What offers you good cover while giving you a good field of fire with a safe background? Take some time to figure out what your background is in different positions and how you can compensate for that problem.

3. Solving the problem with as few shots as possible reduces the potential for a miss.

Originally Posted by ADB

However, what is objective is 8 inches of penetration in ballistic gel, as well as a long history of hunting accidents speak for themselves. I use the Cheney accident because it's a well documented one that people are aware of--from 90 to 120 feet away, shot penetrated as far as touching the victim's heart. That's substantial damage. Now imagine it ten times closer.

8" is great if you get an unobstructed frontal torso shot. If he has his arms up in front of him (say as if he was aiming a handgun back at you), then 8" may not get it done. Consider this ballistics gel test of Winchest 2 3/4" 12ga 7.5 shot. Using a 24" barrel, with the bare ballistics gel only 10' away from the muzzle, the DEEPEST shot penetration was only 5.9" with most of the shot right around 4". Something as simple as a couch pillow can turn your perfected unobstructed torso shot into "not enough penetration" pretty easily with those numbers.

There are plenty of examples where birdshot failed to stop:
Elias Stacy shoots Clell Miller in the face with birdshot at short range during James gang raid on Northfield.
Shot in the face with birdshot from across a stairway - unarmed victim survives by running away
Shot in the back of the head at point blank range with birdshot - no pellets penetrate skull
94yr old man shoots himself in the abdomen point blank with bird shot - treats wound himself and then waits until 8:30am the next morning for his home health care nurse to arrive to go to hospital
Winchester 97 duel - man takes a load of #6 shot to the face from 6', kills person who shot him with buckshot loaded 97 and then drives 100 miles to his home before seeking treatment.

Birdshot certainly can kill or stop a threat. It just doesn't do so reliably as heavier shot that meets the FBI criteria.

[aroundchicago]

In an apartment and in close quarters, #8 would be just as effective is #4. Inside of 15 feet, your not going to get much spread anyway. It's still a lot of lead in a small circle.

[shortwave]

When I lived in an apartment, it was #4 lead.
The apartments neighboring walls (that would be in the line of fire) were, as best I could, lined with bookshelves, shelving with decorations, furniture, entertainment center, etc. to help stop penetration into their apartment.

IMO, a pistol of acceptable HD power should not be used in most apartment settings.