Dumb Questions re: 38 Special

willr · August 12, 2006, 02:41 PM

Somewhere, I heard that originally, the 38 S&W Special was a black-powder cartridge. Is that true?
Second question: if so, has anyone experimented recently with reloading the 38 Special with either black powder or Pyrodex, and if so, what loads appear promising?
I know these questions may seem dumb, but am asking out of curiosity.
Thanks, willr

Jim Watson · August 12, 2006, 02:55 PM

The .38 Special came out with a 158 grain bullet and somewhere near 21 grains of black; very "special" compared to the .38 Long Colt at 150-18, eh?

There is some use of .38 Spl with black in CAS so as to make smoke without the recoil of a .44 or .45.

The two keys are:
1. Fill 'er up. Black powder should have no airspace between powder and bullet. Real black benefits from compression, the fakes less so, but a little is still good.
2. Grease 'er up. The hard colored wax in bulk cast bullets is inadequate for black or Pyrodex. You can get Meister bullets with SPG black powder lube, but not a whole lot of it. There are gimmicks with wads and grease cookies but a proper bullet is better. There are some specialty casters doing wide groove bullets to carry more lube.

I have shot a little 777 which is more tolerant. You can use it with wax lubed bullets, for example. Kind of expensive but easier to find than black and less corrosive than Pyrodex.

A search on the SASS wire will find some information although the rulers have quit allowing detailed reload information.
http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12

mec · August 12, 2006, 04:46 PM

Exactly right. And when the .44 special came out in 1907 it was loaded with black powder too. There are internet experts who will deny this and call you names if they run across a post like this but its true nevertheless.

.44 special bp load from 1912-13

25 yard bench group. The primers were duds and I replaced and reassembled with modern remingtons. also loaded some with recent manufactured Goex.

Previous data collected under similar conditions shows that I have gotten 659 fps from that revolver and the traditional 246-grain smokeless .44 Special factory loads from Winchester Western. The vintage loads produced an average 709 fps ten round average with a 73 fps spread. The same bullets and cases with Goex 3f substituted got 762 fps with a 56 fps spread. As is often the case with black powder loads, the more precise powder charge of the Goex loads does not produce any great increase in measured consistency. Both of the black powder loads are faster than the modern smokeless powder loads

James K · August 15, 2006, 01:02 PM

I have loaded .38 Special with black powder. After cleaning all the crud out of a Smith & Wesson M&P, I'll never do that again. Nor can I imagine any reason anyone would want to do it, except in an emergency. I stick to easier to clean percussion guns for BP shooting, and use smokeless for cartridge guns.

Jim

Steve499 · August 15, 2006, 10:40 PM

I loaded a box of 50 this spring. I don't recall the powder weight but the case was almost full and was compressed by the bullet. I cast some pure lead semi-wadcutters ( only because that's what I had in my lead pot) and lubed them with my beeswax/olive oil black powder lube. The results were rather disappointing. The lube ring on the bullet wasn't able to hold enough lube to keep the fouling soft in the barrel. Accuracy deteriorated after a couple of cylinders full were shot without cleaning the barrel. Other than that, though, it wasn't bad. The S&W model 14 I used sure cleaned up easier than either of my cap and ball revolvers.

Steve

timothy75 · August 19, 2006, 09:22 AM

Yes it was loaded with 20gr BP when created in 1899 and suffered performance when changed over to smokless for saftey reasons. 20-21 gr FFF or prodex is around +p performance.

wrcook · August 25, 2006, 08:40 AM

I have been loading black in .357 cases, and bought a mould that casts a bullet that takes a lot of lube. My wife shoots them in a pair American Western Peacekeepers in the frontier cartridge catagory. For Cowboy Action shooting they have good accuracy. I tried .38, but the longer .357 case gives a bit more "get up and go". Also the longer case will reduce chamber erosion in the .357 cylinder. Black is a lot more fun.

mec · August 25, 2006, 09:27 AM

I shot those old black powder .44 specials in a stainless model 29. Only about 30 rounds but for some reason, the gun kept functioning just fine and didn't seem to collect powder residue as bad as some of my percussion revolvers do. It cleaned up fairly easily. The bullets are cupro nickle jacketed with very small lubricant grooves that still have lubrican of about the same consistency as rcbs green or the newer blue lubes used by commercial casters. I suspect the absence of the over-ball grease we often use with percussion revolvers helped matters a great deal. The grease tends to combine with the black powder vapors and gum things up even faster.

To shoot those 90+ year old loads, I had to pull them apart and replace the dud primers with modern ones. I then reassembled the lot and even loaded some with modern goex just to see what would happen.
the group in the picture is about 2.1 inches and was with the original powder.

bullfrog99 · August 29, 2006, 09:37 PM

"After cleaning all the crud out of a Smith & Wesson M&P, I'll never do that again."

I did the same with my GP-100

I'll admit the firsc cylinder was quite accurate, but after that...

After six cylinders full, the gun was so gummed up it would no longer function. I had to soak the gun overnight in soapy water just to get it working again.

Probably works fine in single actions, but pyrodex in a double-action is a no-no, at least the newer ones.

bad thing is I still have twenty or so left to shoot...

Lazarus777 · August 29, 2006, 10:00 PM

You could always pull the bullets, that way you won't have to worry screwing your double action up again.

Laz.

August 12, 2006, 02:41 PM	#1
willr Senior Member Join Date: July 23, 2006 Posts: 356	Dumb Questions re: 38 Special Somewhere, I heard that originally, the 38 S&W Special was a black-powder cartridge. Is that true? Second question: if so, has anyone experimented recently with reloading the 38 Special with either black powder or Pyrodex, and if so, what loads appear promising? I know these questions may seem dumb, but am asking out of curiosity. Thanks, willr

August 12, 2006, 04:46 PM	#3
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	Exactly right. And when the .44 special came out in 1907 it was loaded with black powder too. There are internet experts who will deny this and call you names if they run across a post like this but its true nevertheless. .44 special bp load from 1912-13 25 yard bench group. The primers were duds and I replaced and reassembled with modern remingtons. also loaded some with recent manufactured Goex. Previous data collected under similar conditions shows that I have gotten 659 fps from that revolver and the traditional 246-grain smokeless .44 Special factory loads from Winchester Western. The vintage loads produced an average 709 fps ten round average with a 73 fps spread. The same bullets and cases with Goex 3f substituted got 762 fps with a 56 fps spread. As is often the case with black powder loads, the more precise powder charge of the Goex loads does not produce any great increase in measured consistency. Both of the black powder loads are faster than the modern smokeless powder loads Last edited by mec; August 12, 2006 at 05:51 PM.

August 29, 2006, 09:37 PM	#9
bullfrog99 Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2000 Location: Southeast Michigan Posts: 811	"After cleaning all the crud out of a Smith & Wesson M&P, I'll never do that again." I did the same with my GP-100 I'll admit the firsc cylinder was quite accurate, but after that... After six cylinders full, the gun was so gummed up it would no longer function. I had to soak the gun overnight in soapy water just to get it working again. Probably works fine in single actions, but pyrodex in a double-action is a no-no, at least the newer ones. bad thing is I still have twenty or so left to shoot... __________________ Are you a gamer? Try Fortress Forever, It is a free HL2 Mod. http://www.fortress-forever.com/?a=media

August 12, 2006, 02:55 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The .38 Special came out with a 158 grain bullet and somewhere near 21 grains of black; very "special" compared to the .38 Long Colt at 150-18, eh? There is some use of .38 Spl with black in CAS so as to make smoke without the recoil of a .44 or .45. The two keys are: 1. Fill 'er up. Black powder should have no airspace between powder and bullet. Real black benefits from compression, the fakes less so, but a little is still good. 2. Grease 'er up. The hard colored wax in bulk cast bullets is inadequate for black or Pyrodex. You can get Meister bullets with SPG black powder lube, but not a whole lot of it. There are gimmicks with wads and grease cookies but a proper bullet is better. There are some specialty casters doing wide groove bullets to carry more lube. I have shot a little 777 which is more tolerant. You can use it with wax lubed bullets, for example. Kind of expensive but easier to find than black and less corrosive than Pyrodex. A search on the SASS wire will find some information although the rulers have quit allowing detailed reload information. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showforum=12

August 15, 2006, 01:02 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I have loaded .38 Special with black powder. After cleaning all the crud out of a Smith & Wesson M&P, I'll never do that again. Nor can I imagine any reason anyone would want to do it, except in an emergency. I stick to easier to clean percussion guns for BP shooting, and use smokeless for cartridge guns. Jim

August 15, 2006, 10:40 PM	#5
Steve499 Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Central Missouri Posts: 533	I loaded a box of 50 this spring. I don't recall the powder weight but the case was almost full and was compressed by the bullet. I cast some pure lead semi-wadcutters ( only because that's what I had in my lead pot) and lubed them with my beeswax/olive oil black powder lube. The results were rather disappointing. The lube ring on the bullet wasn't able to hold enough lube to keep the fouling soft in the barrel. Accuracy deteriorated after a couple of cylinders full were shot without cleaning the barrel. Other than that, though, it wasn't bad. The S&W model 14 I used sure cleaned up easier than either of my cap and ball revolvers. Steve

August 19, 2006, 09:22 AM	#6
timothy75 Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2005 Location: Nevada Posts: 1,146	Yes it was loaded with 20gr BP when created in 1899 and suffered performance when changed over to smokless for saftey reasons. 20-21 gr FFF or prodex is around +p performance.

August 25, 2006, 08:40 AM	#7
wrcook Member Join Date: July 7, 2004 Posts: 30	I have been loading black in .357 cases, and bought a mould that casts a bullet that takes a lot of lube. My wife shoots them in a pair American Western Peacekeepers in the frontier cartridge catagory. For Cowboy Action shooting they have good accuracy. I tried .38, but the longer .357 case gives a bit more "get up and go". Also the longer case will reduce chamber erosion in the .357 cylinder. Black is a lot more fun.

August 25, 2006, 09:27 AM	#8
mec Junior member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Posts: 1,536	I shot those old black powder .44 specials in a stainless model 29. Only about 30 rounds but for some reason, the gun kept functioning just fine and didn't seem to collect powder residue as bad as some of my percussion revolvers do. It cleaned up fairly easily. The bullets are cupro nickle jacketed with very small lubricant grooves that still have lubrican of about the same consistency as rcbs green or the newer blue lubes used by commercial casters. I suspect the absence of the over-ball grease we often use with percussion revolvers helped matters a great deal. The grease tends to combine with the black powder vapors and gum things up even faster. To shoot those 90+ year old loads, I had to pull them apart and replace the dud primers with modern ones. I then reassembled the lot and even loaded some with modern goex just to see what would happen. the group in the picture is about 2.1 inches and was with the original powder.

August 29, 2006, 10:00 PM	#10
Lazarus777 Member Join Date: August 23, 2006 Posts: 39	You could always pull the bullets, that way you won't have to worry screwing your double action up again. Laz.