New Muzzle Loader Questions

Dwight55 · December 11, 2005, 07:22 PM

I recently bought a NIB New England Firearms, 50 x 209 muzzle loader.

The sales clerk also sold me some 240 grain Hornady saboted bullets, and 777 powder. I'm shooting 2 ea of the 50 gr pellets each shot.

The best I can get this thing to shoot at 100 yds (using a substantial rest) is cutting paper on an 8 inch Shoot N C target. I shoot for dead center and it lands somewhere in the paper.

I know this is a lot better than my old shotgun & slugs, . . . but I would like to get it down to at least a 4 or maybe a 3 in spread instead of the 8 I have now.

As well as deer, . . . I would also like to use it for coyote hunting next spring, but it needs to shoot better than that for Wiley.

Thanks for your help,
May God bless,
Dwight

jaymag · December 11, 2005, 07:32 PM

I never heard of that gun.But most inlines groupat a 100YRD.very easily.Rifled barrel with 100gr. pellet 240gr. bullet goes about 1800 f.p.s. .Not much drop at all.Maybe 2-4 inches or so.Start off at 25 yards.Get a group.Then go to fiftey yrds get a group.Then 75yd. get a group.There WILL be a adjustment every time.Then you will fine tune your 100yd shots.When your done go back to 25.yds.and you might be a few inches high.But thats's perfect!

Dwight55 · December 11, 2005, 08:21 PM

Jaymag, . . . I started out like you said at 25 yds, . . . then moved back to 50, . . . just like sighting in any other rifle with a scope (mine is a 3 x 9).

At 25 & 50 the groups are good, . . . but I skipped the 75 and went straight to the 100. Out of eight shots, . . . on an 8 in circular target, . . . two were just barely on the paper at 12 straight up, . . . 1 at 3 oclock, 4 oclock, 5 oclock, one at 10:30 one at 11. All of these were within 1 inch of the edge of the paper or so, . . . the last one was about 2 inches off dead center at 2 oclock.

If it had been a load of 00 buck, . . . I would have been well pleased, . . . but this was all very controlled shooting, . . . keeping variables to a minimum.

I guess it has me stumped, . . . just looking for suggestions to tighten up the group.

May God bless,
Dwight

stevelyn · December 12, 2005, 01:27 AM

Round file the pellets or burn them off in your front yard for New Years. They're garbage and are only made for Elmers who are too lazy to work with their rifles and readily accept mediocrity.
Work up your loads with granular powder. Pellets are inconsistent at best and down right worthless at the worst. They also restrict you in finding your accuracy load since you can only do 50 grain increments forcing you to settle for mediocre accuracy and power. You should be able to cut clover leafs with that rifle at 50 yrds or better, but you can't when you're charging it with those worthless arse pellets.
Once you find that accuracy load you can pre-measure your charges in speed loaders for hunting that'll give you the convenience of pellets.

You also have to remember that T-7 is about 15% hotter energywise than bp or Pyrodex. So even though they are measured volume for volume, a 100 gr by volume charge of T-7 will have the whomp of about 115 gr or so of bp. That has an effect on accuracy.

I have a .54 Lyman GPR with 1:60 barrel that I shoot with T-7 2F and pillow ticking patched round balls. I can cover my 100 yrd groups with a closed fist. The first 3-4 shots are nearly touching. Barrel fouling eventually opens them up after that.

My accuracy load happens to be 80 grs volume. A 5 gr increase starts scattering my shots and blowing out my patches. Less than 80 gr, trajectory starts becoming rainbow like.

Smokin_Gun · December 14, 2005, 12:52 AM

If you get an 8" spread on a Deer load(one charge 2 patched balls) your doing good at 100yards. That's what I got with my .50cal Tennessee Poorboy and my T/C Hawken with patched balls and slower twist barrels. I take it you are using an in-line? Were I use 60-70gr. and you use 100gr is about right...I don't shoot in-lines but from what I have read it's about right. By all means go to Goex FFFg regular powder and adjust to tighten up your groups if desired. Drop it down to a lower charge and work it back up to where you want it. Best of luck.

Toney · December 15, 2005, 02:06 AM

Shooting those sabots you got to clean the barrel between shots

Smokin_Gun · December 15, 2005, 02:14 AM

I'm a traditionalist and can't bring myself to shoot sabots let alone in-lines...

I can probly 20 shots of .50 cal RB using bore butter on the patches vs 10 shots and I have to swab with Mooses Milk. And I shoot .58 Mini balls all day. With out swabing. With patches kinda like the bore butter based lube pills the bore gets cleaned and seasoned every shot...kinda sorta.

Dwight55 · December 19, 2005, 11:12 AM

Smokin Gun, . . . I have thought of throwning the plastic sabots away and just trying the bullets alone with a patch, . . .

Would Bore Butter be a good lube to use for that? Their advertising makes the product sound really good.

I am also going to switch to granular powder and get my old reloading scale out and work up some different loads. Stevelyn's post got me to remembering the fun we used to have building .45 ACP, . . . .357, . . . and .223 loads, . . . about 30 years ago.

I guess being new to BP kinda dulled my thinking, . . .

Thanks folks, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

mrawesome22 · January 1, 2006, 12:07 PM

Hey Dwight, those plastic sabots are leaving plastic residue on your rifling. Try using powerbelt bullets and see if that does the trick. They are full bore sized and copper clad. Also as suggested earlier, dump the pellets for loose powder. In my New England Huntsman inline, I shoot 2" groups at 150 yards with 245 grain powerbelts and 80 grains of Triple 7. Also, I've read on Chuck Hawks' site that he has had much better accuracy with Pyrodex than Triple 7. I found the opposite to be true in my rifle but at least give it a shot to see which powder your gun prefers. Good smokepoling!

jsflagstad · January 1, 2006, 03:32 PM

I bought a lower cost 209x50 Muzzle loader and early on I had some accuracy problems. Mine is the Beartooth Magnum made by CVA in Spain (Europe's Mexico), all of $129 at Wal-Mart. It is of the break open type like a single shot shotgun. With the accuracy problems I had early on, lets just say I was a bit frustrated. I sought help from a couple of local experts and each one gave me a tip that I used, and now the way this thing shoots I would NEVER part with it for double what I paid!!!!

The first tip was that the lower cost BP rifles don't have quite the finish on the bore that the higher cost ones do. For this reason I was told that it was necessary to "Shoot in" the barrel. He said to get some cheap projectiles (like 100 of them) and shoot, shoot and shoot some more brushing the bore every 5-10 shots or so. I had fun with this, I shot balls (although accuracy suffered with my 1 in 24" twist) and big lead conicals. I was told to shoot them at light to medium loadings to minimize leading. Over the course of a couple weekends, I probably shot it 90-100 times to finish up the "shoot in".

The second tip was to "Season the bore" of the rifle. This Basically is a really good cleaning with some really hot water. First, take the rifle down as far as possible (apart from the stock) and remove the breech plug. Next add 2 or so tablespoons of dish detergent to 2 quarts of water in a pan and heat it to boiling on the stove or a hot plate or camp stove in the garage. Locate a decent pair of insulated leather gloves. Take a patch on the cleaning jag and suck up the boiling solution into either end of the barrel. Do this of course with the gloves on and do it until the barrel almost gets too hot to hang on to even with the gloves on. Now switch to a patch coated in some natural bore lube (I used Thomson's Bore Butter) and run it repetidly up and down the bore until it is thouroughly coated. That is all there is to it!!!! I guess this is sort of like seasoning an iron skillet to close up the pores and to make the surface more true.

In using the above tips, my groups went from 12-14 inches (it was bad) at 100 yards to now, about 1 inch or sometimes less. For long range accuracy, I can repetidly bang an 6" gong at 250 yards with it now. The load I use is 90 grains (volume) of Pyrodex FFG loose powder driving a 245 grain Powerbelt hollowpoint bullet.

Things sure took a turn for the better with this rifle when I used the above tips. I can't say it will work for you, but it sure wont hurt to try.

Best of luck,

JSF

armedandsafe · January 1, 2006, 04:19 PM

jsflagstad sure saved me a lot of typing.

I like the powerbelt bullets and the Lee R.E.A.L bullets. The only problem with the REAL bullets is loading can be a b***h. They fit very tightly in the boor and do require a bit of a back bore at the muzzle to load properly.

Pops

jsflagstad · February 9, 2006, 03:14 PM

I have decided to try the R.E.A.L. bullets as well. I'd like to see if they work as well or better than Powerbelts. I ordered the mold and it should be here tomorrow.

JSF

taralon · February 10, 2006, 05:19 PM

Just remember the R.E.A.L. bullets are meant to be slightly oversize to the bore. The letters stand for Rifle Engagement At Loading, which in short means that the driving bands are engraved by the rifling when you load the bullet. As with breechloading bullets, best accuracy is achieved with bullets that are a couple thous over the slugged size of the barrel. Loading them can be a real *(^*% but can be eased slightly by switching to a musket nipple as it allows air to bleed out of the barrel quicker.

You might also want to try some of the hollow based bullets that Lee offers, and can be had online. They load quicker and easier, and with the right powder load are just as accurate.

BigV · February 11, 2006, 10:08 AM

If you want accuracy, stay away from pellets. Both Pyrodex and 777 pellets are not consistent in the manufacturing process. I have read reports of 7% to 10% differences from one pellet /lot to another. You are better off with loose powder and using exact measurements. Pydrodex is a good smokeless powder, but I have recently switched to 777. Start at 80 grains using 248 grain Power Belts. You should be able to get consistent groups (under 2”) at 100 yards. Try working up the powder charge in 10-grain increments until you achieve your desired results. If you still can’t get good groups, try switching to a heavier Power Belt or even to a sabot. It’s really just a matter finding the right combination of powder and bullets to achieve the best accuracy.
As far as cleaning between shots, my TC Omega likes a dirty bore. It allows the Power Belts to engage the rifling better. Some ML rifles like to be cleaned after every shot (especially if you use true black powder), but with today’s modern smokeless powders, cleaning is not needed as often. Just my .02 cents worth.
Hope this helps.

December 11, 2005, 07:22 PM	#1
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	New Muzzle Loader Questions I recently bought a NIB New England Firearms, 50 x 209 muzzle loader. The sales clerk also sold me some 240 grain Hornady saboted bullets, and 777 powder. I'm shooting 2 ea of the 50 gr pellets each shot. The best I can get this thing to shoot at 100 yds (using a substantial rest) is cutting paper on an 8 inch Shoot N C target. I shoot for dead center and it lands somewhere in the paper. I know this is a lot better than my old shotgun & slugs, . . . but I would like to get it down to at least a 4 or maybe a 3 in spread instead of the 8 I have now. As well as deer, . . . I would also like to use it for coyote hunting next spring, but it needs to shoot better than that for Wiley. Thanks for your help, May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

December 11, 2005, 08:21 PM	#3
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Jaymag, . . . I started out like you said at 25 yds, . . . then moved back to 50, . . . just like sighting in any other rifle with a scope (mine is a 3 x 9). At 25 & 50 the groups are good, . . . but I skipped the 75 and went straight to the 100. Out of eight shots, . . . on an 8 in circular target, . . . two were just barely on the paper at 12 straight up, . . . 1 at 3 oclock, 4 oclock, 5 oclock, one at 10:30 one at 11. All of these were within 1 inch of the edge of the paper or so, . . . the last one was about 2 inches off dead center at 2 oclock. If it had been a load of 00 buck, . . . I would have been well pleased, . . . but this was all very controlled shooting, . . . keeping variables to a minimum. I guess it has me stumped, . . . just looking for suggestions to tighten up the group. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

December 12, 2005, 01:27 AM	#4
stevelyn Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell Posts: 2,655	Round file the pellets or burn them off in your front yard for New Years. They're garbage and are only made for Elmers who are too lazy to work with their rifles and readily accept mediocrity. Work up your loads with granular powder. Pellets are inconsistent at best and down right worthless at the worst. They also restrict you in finding your accuracy load since you can only do 50 grain increments forcing you to settle for mediocre accuracy and power. You should be able to cut clover leafs with that rifle at 50 yrds or better, but you can't when you're charging it with those worthless arse pellets. Once you find that accuracy load you can pre-measure your charges in speed loaders for hunting that'll give you the convenience of pellets. You also have to remember that T-7 is about 15% hotter energywise than bp or Pyrodex. So even though they are measured volume for volume, a 100 gr by volume charge of T-7 will have the whomp of about 115 gr or so of bp. That has an effect on accuracy. I have a .54 Lyman GPR with 1:60 barrel that I shoot with T-7 2F and pillow ticking patched round balls. I can cover my 100 yrd groups with a closed fist. The first 3-4 shots are nearly touching. Barrel fouling eventually opens them up after that. My accuracy load happens to be 80 grs volume. A 5 gr increase starts scattering my shots and blowing out my patches. Less than 80 gr, trajectory starts becoming rainbow like. __________________ Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets! http://fastersaveslives.org/ East Moose. Wear Wolf.

December 14, 2005, 12:52 AM	#5
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	8" Spread Deer Load If you get an 8" spread on a Deer load(one charge 2 patched balls) your doing good at 100yards. That's what I got with my .50cal Tennessee Poorboy and my T/C Hawken with patched balls and slower twist barrels. I take it you are using an in-line? Were I use 60-70gr. and you use 100gr is about right...I don't shoot in-lines but from what I have read it's about right. By all means go to Goex FFFg regular powder and adjust to tighten up your groups if desired. Drop it down to a lower charge and work it back up to where you want it. Best of luck. __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

December 15, 2005, 02:14 AM	#7
Smokin_Gun Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2005 Location: Mojave Desert, CA Posts: 1,195	I'm a traditionalist and can't bring myself to shoot sabots let alone in-lines... I can probly 20 shots of .50 cal RB using bore butter on the patches vs 10 shots and I have to swab with Mooses Milk. And I shoot .58 Mini balls all day. With out swabing. With patches kinda like the bore butter based lube pills the bore gets cleaned and seasoned every shot...kinda sorta. __________________ "I Smoke Black Powder" "Favor an 1858 Remington" SGT. Smokin' Gun, Mosby's Rangers 43rd Virginia Cavalry C.S.A. SASS# 19634, ... Admin:http://blackpowdersmoke.com/oldcoots/index.php

December 11, 2005, 07:32 PM	#2
jaymag Senior Member Join Date: October 4, 2005 Location: springfield,MA Posts: 239	I never heard of that gun.But most inlines groupat a 100YRD.very easily.Rifled barrel with 100gr. pellet 240gr. bullet goes about 1800 f.p.s. .Not much drop at all.Maybe 2-4 inches or so.Start off at 25 yards.Get a group.Then go to fiftey yrds get a group.Then 75yd. get a group.There WILL be a adjustment every time.Then you will fine tune your 100yd shots.When your done go back to 25.yds.and you might be a few inches high.But thats's perfect!

December 15, 2005, 02:06 AM	#6
Toney Senior Member Join Date: August 17, 2005 Location: Stillwater Oklahoma Posts: 790	Shooting those sabots you got to clean the barrel between shots

December 19, 2005, 11:12 AM	#8
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Smokin Gun, . . . I have thought of throwning the plastic sabots away and just trying the bullets alone with a patch, . . . Would Bore Butter be a good lube to use for that? Their advertising makes the product sound really good. I am also going to switch to granular powder and get my old reloading scale out and work up some different loads. Stevelyn's post got me to remembering the fun we used to have building .45 ACP, . . . .357, . . . and .223 loads, . . . about 30 years ago. I guess being new to BP kinda dulled my thinking, . . . Thanks folks, . . . May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

January 1, 2006, 12:07 PM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Hey Dwight, those plastic sabots are leaving plastic residue on your rifling. Try using powerbelt bullets and see if that does the trick. They are full bore sized and copper clad. Also as suggested earlier, dump the pellets for loose powder. In my New England Huntsman inline, I shoot 2" groups at 150 yards with 245 grain powerbelts and 80 grains of Triple 7. Also, I've read on Chuck Hawks' site that he has had much better accuracy with Pyrodex than Triple 7. I found the opposite to be true in my rifle but at least give it a shot to see which powder your gun prefers. Good smokepoling!

January 1, 2006, 03:32 PM	#10
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	Shoot in, and season the barrel I bought a lower cost 209x50 Muzzle loader and early on I had some accuracy problems. Mine is the Beartooth Magnum made by CVA in Spain (Europe's Mexico), all of $129 at Wal-Mart. It is of the break open type like a single shot shotgun. With the accuracy problems I had early on, lets just say I was a bit frustrated. I sought help from a couple of local experts and each one gave me a tip that I used, and now the way this thing shoots I would NEVER part with it for double what I paid!!!! The first tip was that the lower cost BP rifles don't have quite the finish on the bore that the higher cost ones do. For this reason I was told that it was necessary to "Shoot in" the barrel. He said to get some cheap projectiles (like 100 of them) and shoot, shoot and shoot some more brushing the bore every 5-10 shots or so. I had fun with this, I shot balls (although accuracy suffered with my 1 in 24" twist) and big lead conicals. I was told to shoot them at light to medium loadings to minimize leading. Over the course of a couple weekends, I probably shot it 90-100 times to finish up the "shoot in". The second tip was to "Season the bore" of the rifle. This Basically is a really good cleaning with some really hot water. First, take the rifle down as far as possible (apart from the stock) and remove the breech plug. Next add 2 or so tablespoons of dish detergent to 2 quarts of water in a pan and heat it to boiling on the stove or a hot plate or camp stove in the garage. Locate a decent pair of insulated leather gloves. Take a patch on the cleaning jag and suck up the boiling solution into either end of the barrel. Do this of course with the gloves on and do it until the barrel almost gets too hot to hang on to even with the gloves on. Now switch to a patch coated in some natural bore lube (I used Thomson's Bore Butter) and run it repetidly up and down the bore until it is thouroughly coated. That is all there is to it!!!! I guess this is sort of like seasoning an iron skillet to close up the pores and to make the surface more true. In using the above tips, my groups went from 12-14 inches (it was bad) at 100 yards to now, about 1 inch or sometimes less. For long range accuracy, I can repetidly bang an 6" gong at 250 yards with it now. The load I use is 90 grains (volume) of Pyrodex FFG loose powder driving a 245 grain Powerbelt hollowpoint bullet. Things sure took a turn for the better with this rifle when I used the above tips. I can't say it will work for you, but it sure wont hurt to try. Best of luck, JSF

January 1, 2006, 04:19 PM	#11
armedandsafe Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 1,001	jsflagstad sure saved me a lot of typing. I like the powerbelt bullets and the Lee R.E.A.L bullets. The only problem with the REAL bullets is loading can be a b***h. They fit very tightly in the boor and do require a bit of a back bore at the muzzle to load properly. Pops __________________ Armed and Safe: Not just a theory If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up. Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."

February 9, 2006, 03:14 PM	#12
jsflagstad Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Up Nort Posts: 419	Getting R.E.A.L. I have decided to try the R.E.A.L. bullets as well. I'd like to see if they work as well or better than Powerbelts. I ordered the mold and it should be here tomorrow. JSF

February 10, 2006, 05:19 PM	#13
taralon Member Join Date: October 21, 2004 Posts: 88	Just remember the R.E.A.L. bullets are meant to be slightly oversize to the bore. The letters stand for Rifle Engagement At Loading, which in short means that the driving bands are engraved by the rifling when you load the bullet. As with breechloading bullets, best accuracy is achieved with bullets that are a couple thous over the slugged size of the barrel. Loading them can be a real (^% but can be eased slightly by switching to a musket nipple as it allows air to bleed out of the barrel quicker. You might also want to try some of the hollow based bullets that Lee offers, and can be had online. They load quicker and easier, and with the right powder load are just as accurate.

February 11, 2006, 10:08 AM	#14
BigV Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 328	If you want accuracy, stay away from pellets. Both Pyrodex and 777 pellets are not consistent in the manufacturing process. I have read reports of 7% to 10% differences from one pellet /lot to another. You are better off with loose powder and using exact measurements. Pydrodex is a good smokeless powder, but I have recently switched to 777. Start at 80 grains using 248 grain Power Belts. You should be able to get consistent groups (under 2”) at 100 yards. Try working up the powder charge in 10-grain increments until you achieve your desired results. If you still can’t get good groups, try switching to a heavier Power Belt or even to a sabot. It’s really just a matter finding the right combination of powder and bullets to achieve the best accuracy. As far as cleaning between shots, my TC Omega likes a dirty bore. It allows the Power Belts to engage the rifling better. Some ML rifles like to be cleaned after every shot (especially if you use true black powder), but with today’s modern smokeless powders, cleaning is not needed as often. Just my .02 cents worth. Hope this helps.