Cross draw - Page 2

MJN77 · June 15, 2010, 08:20 PM

Here's another pic of an authentic type holster. See how it covers the pistol.

Also another pic of ol Bill. Note the holsters. Note how high he wore them. Also note that the holster on his left (your right) that it is a "straight hang" not angled like a modern "cross draw".

Hope it's clear enough.
William (Buffalo Bill) Brooks, horse theif and outlaw. High ridin' belt.

MJN77 · June 15, 2010, 09:18 PM

Here are two Texas Rangers The first is William Callicot, he is wearing his gun cross draw fashion.

The second is Sgt. Ira Aten, he also has his gun cross draw but notice he apparently slid his strong side holster around to his left side with his knife.

This is a cowboy, Joe Ming in 1888.

Notice how high his belt is.

Hawg · June 16, 2010, 04:16 AM

Cool pics MJN, nice holster and pistol too. Is that an original Richard's?

MJN77 · June 16, 2010, 06:41 AM

Nope. It's a Cimarron/Uberti 1851 conversion .38 spl/colt. Started out with "original" finish but it didn't look right so I added a little perma-blu. I like it now. Accurate too.

Hawg · June 16, 2010, 04:33 PM

It looks really good.

MJN77 · June 16, 2010, 05:05 PM

Thank you very much Hawg.

Smokin_Gun · June 17, 2010, 12:05 PM

Quote:

authentic type holster

Those are or were called Bucket Holsters...

Real nice coversion you have there too...

bedbugbilly · June 17, 2010, 05:20 PM

Damn Hog . . . . the photos you post are better 'n the centerfold of the latest issue of Playboy magazine . . . . well . .. almost . . . it'd probably be a tie!

MJN77 · June 17, 2010, 05:55 PM

It's also called a "slim jim" holster. In this case a California round top.

Thanks SG.

Hawg · June 17, 2010, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Damn Hog . . . . the photos you post are better 'n the centerfold of the latest issue of Playboy magazine . . . . well . .. almost . . . it'd probably be a tie!

Me? Surely not. MJN's pics are better than mine.

MJN77 · June 17, 2010, 06:35 PM

Dammit Hawg......im blushin.

Hawg · June 17, 2010, 06:46 PM

Good.

Model-P · June 17, 2010, 11:47 PM

When carried high as they were in the day, cross draw was advantageous for long barreled guns.

Quote:

Stag grips weren't seen either.

Maybe not stag in the 1800s, but IIRC jigged bone was a common cowboy "fixer-upper" replacement stock material, and there are plenty of very old stag grips out there that suggest they may have been used by the end of the cowboy era.....maybe??? Interesting. I never thought about stag not being used in the late 1800s. Not to sidetrack this thread, I'll start another to learn more about the history of stag grips.

Jim March · June 18, 2010, 06:45 AM

I'm of the opinion that Bill did do a double crossdraw. A lot of the photos we have available were definitely staged as hell - this one is a classic example:

There ain't no way he carried with either a big bare blade like that or with his guns "fluffed out" - all of which is clearly for visual effect. Remember, getting your picture taken was a really big deal, a "high tech and new thing" that people dressed up for. You also had to stand there for a while for the slow as hell exposures.

I carry an SA daily in a crossdraw setup of my own design that allows major adjustments to both ride height and tilt angle. This is my favorite setting, which is pretty similar to how Bill carried (but only one gun of course):

This setup is very "high and tight", more or less similar to how Bill carried.

Because of the adjustments available I've tried (briefly) a more "conventional" lower-and-more-horizontal setup:

I can also change the tilt angle around completely and set it up for lower strongside carry:

If you're curious about how this holster works, go here:

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=418769

Back on topic: there's a way to draw from the same side as the gun with butt-forward carry, but it ALWAYS leads to sweeping your own body. It's called the "Prairie Twist Draw". A good pic is available at:

http://www.willghormley-maker.com/Ad...CrossDraw.html

This will get you tossed out of any match and most ranges. I *do* practice it some, with an unloaded gun ONLY, because if my right hand is tied up, shot up or broke I may have to get to it off-handed.

But it's not my standard draw at all and I don't think it was Bill's.

MJN77 · June 18, 2010, 08:54 AM

Jim-
You may be of that opinion, but eye witness accounts, known friends and researchers of Bill Hickok disagree with you. Read about him. It was a common way to carry AND draw back then. The reverse cavalry draw or "praire twist" is not dangerous. With an unloaded single action revolver, try this. As you draw the gun you are cocking the hammer, twisting the gun around and bringing it up on target. While doing this try to "fire" the gun while drawing. It isn't as easy as you may think. The way your thumb twists on the hammer makes it ptetty tough to let go of it. Hell, the cavalry troopers did it that way( reverse CAVALRY draw). And "gunfighters" didn't worry about matches or range officers tossing them out when someone tried to kill them.

As far as "cross" draw, time yourself and see how long it takes to reach all the way across your body, get hold of your gun THEN pull it. Then time yourself with a strong side draw. Like I said earlier, I carry SA revolvers in a cross draw fashion so this is not about my preference. Cross draw is better when mounted (seated) but that's really the only benefit.

Again, look at 1800 period photos and see how many "cross draw" holsters you come up with.

Model-P · June 18, 2010, 12:48 PM

Quote:

The reverse cavalry draw or "praire twist" is not dangerous.

I tried to convince a group of this, and the semi-auto guys nearly castrated me! Well, yeah......I guess with a semi-auto it wouldn't be a good way to carry, but with a revolver it is just fine.

Quote:

Again, look at 1800 period photos and see how many "cross draw" holsters you come up with.

A century is a long time, and the 19th century covers a huge part of revolver and holster development. I have found that cross draw and twist draw seemed to predominate until some time after the Civil War. Period photos from the 1880s on seem to favor the standard draw. It's all evolutionary, and shorter barrels became more popular with time.

MJN77 · June 18, 2010, 10:06 PM

"A century is a long time"

You're right. But revolvers were only around for the second half of that century.

"cross draw and twist draw seemed to predominate until some time after the Civil War"

The Civil War was only about 10 years after revolvers started becoming common and the war lasted 4 years. Look at CW era pics of CIVILIANS during the war, in the mining camps of California or the western frontier towns. I bet you see more strong side holsters. Heck, I have even seen pics of confederate guerrillas (bushwhackers) in Missouri wearing their guns butts to the rear.(guerrillas most often wore their guns butt foreward) Most of the pics I have seen in the last 20+ years show strong side carry more often than not 1860s to 1900s. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm just presenting the facts as I have found them through research for a very long time. I am by no means an expert nor do I claim to be. I hope I don't come across the wrong way.

the Black Spot · June 18, 2010, 11:50 PM

if i did concealed carry it would be standard strong side, too easy for someone if they go in close to grab your gun in a crossdraw carry.

Jimmy10mm · June 19, 2010, 12:40 AM

As Black Spot said, in a close quarter altercation the possibility of someone having the butt of your gun within easy reach is a possibility that I wouldn't want. In his excellent book."No Second Place Winner," Bill Jordan, shooter extradonaire, pointed out that exact scenario as one good reason not to carry cross draw fashion. He also pointed out that in a strong side draw the muzzle is brought up in line with the target. In a cross draw the muzzle is moving across the target and it is easier to get a hit from the strong side draw. If you've never read the book get a copy. It is really informative.

davem · June 19, 2010, 01:12 AM

well....I'm sort of surprised no one has yet mentioned this so I guess I will. I think one advantage of a cross draw has to do with the barrel length on the handgun. Let's say you have a 4" barrel, if you wear a normal holster you only have to lift the gun about 5-6" to clear the holster BUT if you have a real hog leg with a 7 1/2" or longer barrel, then you are really raising your elbow pulling that gun out of a normal holster, but if that same holster is worn cross draw, it is a lot easier to pull a long barreled handgun out- or at least it is for me.

Model-P · June 19, 2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

well....I'm sort of surprised no one has yet mentioned this so I guess I will. I think one advantage of a cross draw has to do with the barrel length on the handgun.

I mentioned it! I mentioned it! (Toot! Toot!)

Quote:

When carried high as they were in the day, cross draw was advantageous for long barreled guns.

And I think you are spot on

Anyone with an 8" barreled 1858 or 1860 should experiment and find out how true it is.

davem · June 19, 2010, 01:26 AM

Sorry, missed it.

MJN77 · June 19, 2010, 08:15 AM

Actually, I mentioned it in my very first post in this thread.

Mose Jefferson · August 12, 2010, 02:12 AM

Carryin your pistol backwards is also a good way to keep the grips from printing while concealed. For a bean pole like me, it's quite helpful. Hell, on a windy day, that big ol' hunk of steel on my belt is just about the only thing holdin me down.

Lately, when I don't feel like giving up my front pocket to my 642, I've been slappin my right-hand Simply Rugged Silver Dollar on my left side. The next holster I have those folks make me is gonna be a left-hander for my right side, for the 3" sp101, which was always too big for my britches.

Until I started carryin backwards, that is.

Slowhand · August 12, 2010, 03:18 AM

Interesting thread. I carry concealed. The Primary Weapon a Sig P-239 is at 4 O'Clock IWB, the BUG a Ruger LCP .380 is usually IWB or OWB depending on how I'm dressed at !0 O'Clock. The .380 is carried at a cross draw position.

In the Winter, depending on where I'm going, with a coat or vest, it's a Shoulder Holster, left side of course Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 44 Mag. With either the Sig or the Ruger LCP .380 as a BUG, at the 10 'Clock position.

June 15, 2010, 08:20 PM	#26
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Here's another pic of an authentic type holster. See how it covers the pistol. Also another pic of ol Bill. Note the holsters. Note how high he wore them. Also note that the holster on his left (your right) that it is a "straight hang" not angled like a modern "cross draw". Hope it's clear enough. William (Buffalo Bill) Brooks, horse theif and outlaw. High ridin' belt. Last edited by MJN77; June 15, 2010 at 09:37 PM.

June 17, 2010, 05:20 PM	#33
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	Damn Hog . . . . the photos you post are better 'n the centerfold of the latest issue of Playboy magazine . . . . well . .. almost . . . it'd probably be a tie! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

June 17, 2010, 05:55 PM	#34
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	It's also called a "slim jim" holster. In this case a California round top. Thanks SG. Last edited by MJN77; June 17, 2010 at 06:43 PM.

June 18, 2010, 06:45 AM	#39
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,417	I'm of the opinion that Bill did do a double crossdraw. A lot of the photos we have available were definitely staged as hell - this one is a classic example: There ain't no way he carried with either a big bare blade like that or with his guns "fluffed out" - all of which is clearly for visual effect. Remember, getting your picture taken was a really big deal, a "high tech and new thing" that people dressed up for. You also had to stand there for a while for the slow as hell exposures. I carry an SA daily in a crossdraw setup of my own design that allows major adjustments to both ride height and tilt angle. This is my favorite setting, which is pretty similar to how Bill carried (but only one gun of course): This setup is very "high and tight", more or less similar to how Bill carried. Because of the adjustments available I've tried (briefly) a more "conventional" lower-and-more-horizontal setup: I can also change the tilt angle around completely and set it up for lower strongside carry: If you're curious about how this holster works, go here: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=418769 Back on topic: there's a way to draw from the same side as the gun with butt-forward carry, but it ALWAYS leads to sweeping your own body. It's called the "Prairie Twist Draw". A good pic is available at: http://www.willghormley-maker.com/Ad...CrossDraw.html This will get you tossed out of any match and most ranges. I do practice it some, with an unloaded gun ONLY, because if my right hand is tied up, shot up or broke I may have to get to it off-handed. But it's not my standard draw at all and I don't think it was Bill's. __________________ Jim March

June 18, 2010, 08:54 AM	#40
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Jim- You may be of that opinion, but eye witness accounts, known friends and researchers of Bill Hickok disagree with you. Read about him. It was a common way to carry AND draw back then. The reverse cavalry draw or "praire twist" is not dangerous. With an unloaded single action revolver, try this. As you draw the gun you are cocking the hammer, twisting the gun around and bringing it up on target. While doing this try to "fire" the gun while drawing. It isn't as easy as you may think. The way your thumb twists on the hammer makes it ptetty tough to let go of it. Hell, the cavalry troopers did it that way( reverse CAVALRY draw). And "gunfighters" didn't worry about matches or range officers tossing them out when someone tried to kill them. As far as "cross" draw, time yourself and see how long it takes to reach all the way across your body, get hold of your gun THEN pull it. Then time yourself with a strong side draw. Like I said earlier, I carry SA revolvers in a cross draw fashion so this is not about my preference. Cross draw is better when mounted (seated) but that's really the only benefit. Again, look at 1800 period photos and see how many "cross draw" holsters you come up with. Last edited by MJN77; June 18, 2010 at 10:14 PM.

June 15, 2010, 09:18 PM	#27
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Here are two Texas Rangers The first is William Callicot, he is wearing his gun cross draw fashion. The second is Sgt. Ira Aten, he also has his gun cross draw but notice he apparently slid his strong side holster around to his left side with his knife. This is a cowboy, Joe Ming in 1888. Notice how high his belt is.

June 16, 2010, 04:16 AM	#28
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Cool pics MJN, nice holster and pistol too. Is that an original Richard's?

June 16, 2010, 06:41 AM	#29
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Nope. It's a Cimarron/Uberti 1851 conversion .38 spl/colt. Started out with "original" finish but it didn't look right so I added a little perma-blu. I like it now. Accurate too.

June 16, 2010, 04:33 PM	#30
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	It looks really good.

June 16, 2010, 05:05 PM	#31
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Thank you very much Hawg.

June 17, 2010, 06:35 PM	#36
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Dammit Hawg......im blushin.

June 17, 2010, 06:46 PM	#37
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	Good.

June 18, 2010, 10:06 PM	#42
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	"A century is a long time" You're right. But revolvers were only around for the second half of that century. "cross draw and twist draw seemed to predominate until some time after the Civil War" The Civil War was only about 10 years after revolvers started becoming common and the war lasted 4 years. Look at CW era pics of CIVILIANS during the war, in the mining camps of California or the western frontier towns. I bet you see more strong side holsters. Heck, I have even seen pics of confederate guerrillas (bushwhackers) in Missouri wearing their guns butts to the rear.(guerrillas most often wore their guns butt foreward) Most of the pics I have seen in the last 20+ years show strong side carry more often than not 1860s to 1900s. I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm just presenting the facts as I have found them through research for a very long time. I am by no means an expert nor do I claim to be. I hope I don't come across the wrong way.

June 18, 2010, 11:50 PM	#43
the Black Spot Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2009 Location: arkansas Posts: 218	if i did concealed carry it would be standard strong side, too easy for someone if they go in close to grab your gun in a crossdraw carry.

June 19, 2010, 12:40 AM	#44
Jimmy10mm Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2010 Location: Greenacres, FL Posts: 933	As Black Spot said, in a close quarter altercation the possibility of someone having the butt of your gun within easy reach is a possibility that I wouldn't want. In his excellent book."No Second Place Winner," Bill Jordan, shooter extradonaire, pointed out that exact scenario as one good reason not to carry cross draw fashion. He also pointed out that in a strong side draw the muzzle is brought up in line with the target. In a cross draw the muzzle is moving across the target and it is easier to get a hit from the strong side draw. If you've never read the book get a copy. It is really informative.

June 19, 2010, 01:12 AM	#45
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	well....I'm sort of surprised no one has yet mentioned this so I guess I will. I think one advantage of a cross draw has to do with the barrel length on the handgun. Let's say you have a 4" barrel, if you wear a normal holster you only have to lift the gun about 5-6" to clear the holster BUT if you have a real hog leg with a 7 1/2" or longer barrel, then you are really raising your elbow pulling that gun out of a normal holster, but if that same holster is worn cross draw, it is a lot easier to pull a long barreled handgun out- or at least it is for me.

June 19, 2010, 01:26 AM	#47
davem Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 458	Sorry, missed it.

June 19, 2010, 08:15 AM	#48
MJN77 Senior Member Join Date: April 27, 2009 Location: on a hill in West Virginia Posts: 789	Actually, I mentioned it in my very first post in this thread.

August 12, 2010, 02:12 AM	#49
Mose Jefferson Member Join Date: February 17, 2009 Location: Northwest America Posts: 35	Sorry to dig up a dead thread, but... Carryin your pistol backwards is also a good way to keep the grips from printing while concealed. For a bean pole like me, it's quite helpful. Hell, on a windy day, that big ol' hunk of steel on my belt is just about the only thing holdin me down. Lately, when I don't feel like giving up my front pocket to my 642, I've been slappin my right-hand Simply Rugged Silver Dollar on my left side. The next holster I have those folks make me is gonna be a left-hander for my right side, for the 3" sp101, which was always too big for my britches. Until I started carryin backwards, that is. __________________ "A government is a body of people; usually, notably ungoverned." -Firefly

August 12, 2010, 03:18 AM	#50
Slowhand Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 263	Glad You Brought It Up Interesting thread. I carry concealed. The Primary Weapon a Sig P-239 is at 4 O'Clock IWB, the BUG a Ruger LCP .380 is usually IWB or OWB depending on how I'm dressed at !0 O'Clock. The .380 is carried at a cross draw position. In the Winter, depending on where I'm going, with a coat or vest, it's a Shoulder Holster, left side of course Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan 44 Mag. With either the Sig or the Ruger LCP .380 as a BUG, at the 10 'Clock position.