Lee Deluxe Pistol Die Set Instructions

[balderclev]

Just got my die set in and have been reading the instructions and am a bit confused. I have only reloaded 223 so far and have no straight case experience.

The kit comes with a factory crimp die, expanding die, sizing die, and bullet seat die.

My confusion is between the bullet seat die and the crimp die. It seems that the seat die also crimps so what is the crimp die for?

[Gster]

The seat/crimp die crimps well with adjustment made, if your brass is all trimmed to the same length. The FCD crimps in a separate step with untrimmed brass that varies in length.

[david_r]

If you back the seat/crimp die out further, it won't crimp at all. The seat/crimp die crimps as the bullet is being seated. There could be an issue with this if you don't hit the cannelure just right.

Some people will tell you they don't much like the FCD as it can resize a lead bullet since it is designed to resize the base of the shell to max SAAMI specification as a final check. This can lead to a loss of bullet tension or leading in a barrel. I don't use the FCD for straight wall cases so who knows how it will work for you.

If you wan the FCD to only crimp and not do a final resize check on the cartridge, you can knock the carbide ring out of the bottom of it. I suspect that would void your warranty.

[rob-c]

I have not used mine yet my self, but my understanding with the FCD is it is handy if you are shooting mixed brass. you can throw different case manufacturers in the press and go to town.

[Lost Sheep]

The simplest reason for the existence of the FCD (Factory Crimp Die) is that some people want to Seat in a separate step from the Crimping step.

Adjusting a single die to both seat and crimp simultaneously is a little more complex than adjusting a die that only does one thing at a time. Also, when you do seat with a combination die, you are applying the crimp while the bullet is still being seated the very last bit. This can cause problems sometimes.

The Seating (the third die) die in the Lee 3-die set has to do both. The Seating die in Lee's 4-die Deluxe set is the same as in the 3-die set, thus can do both, but does not, if you have it adjusted out as David_r suggests.

Thus, when you have the 4-die set, you also have the 3-die set.

Then there is the Post-Sizing function of the Lee FCD. This is more controversial. It ensures that any bulges or out-of-round conditions are ironed out. But it comes with problems. If you squish a lead bullet (inside the brass case), the brass springs back a little and the lead doesn't. Therefore, the grip (friction) the brass has on the bullet is reduced. This is only a problem if your loaded cartridge is, indeed, squished down by the post-sizing. A second problem arises, too. An undersized lead bullet will let hot gasses escape around the sides of the bullet while it is in the barrel. This melts lead from the bullet and lets it deposit in the barrel. Which you will then have to clean out with either harsh chemicals, a lot of scrubbing or some kind of electrolysis. Besides, undersized bullets are lousy for accuracy.

Some people cure the problem by simply knocking the post-sizing ring out of the die. Simple, and irreversible. Others take the care to have their components (bullet diamter and brass wall thickness) sized to prevent any problem that needs such a cure. Micrometer or calipers are a BIG help.

A few people denigrate anyone who uses the FCD.

Do a search in this forum for the thread I started a while back "FCD the virtue and the vice". There were a lot of good contributors to that one.

Thanks for asking our advice.

Lost Sheep

edit: note that the Lee FCD for bottlenecked cases and the Lee FCD for straight-walled cases are very different. I think you know this already, but others are reading, too.

[AL45]

I always use the FCD on my .45 Colt loads. It can be adjusted from a light crimp to a heavy crimp depending on the load. I have used it on over 1300 rounds and every bullet has left the barrel and appeared to be at least as accurate as me. I have brass that is on it's 12 reload with no signs of wearing out.

[balderclev]

Thanks so much for all the comments and advice. I managed to get a hundred brass ready for powder and bullets which should be in tomorrow.

I did vary a bit from the instructions on the sizing die so that I slightly cam over.

I am assuming that since I will be loading jacketed bullets that the post-sizing function of the FCD would not be appropriate.

Again, thanks for all the info. I do try to research as much as possible before asking questions here, but the Q&A I get here really clears issues up for me.

[howlnmad]

Why did you vary in the adjustment of your sizing die?

The FCD will work fine for jacketed bullets. It's with lead that problems can arise.

[balderclev]

Varied the adjustment based on what I was doing with 223 dies for caming over. New to reloading so have no other excuse except that it felt right.

[howlnmad]

Lee straight walled pistol dies are carbide where as the bottle neck are steel. It's been awhile since I've read their set up instructions but I thought they say to run the die down until it just contacts the shellholder and then back it out. This is so as to not crack the carbide.

[Lost Sheep]

What howlnmad said in his last two posts is correct.

Tungsten-carbide is brittle and can break if contacted too hard with the shell holder.

Originally Posted by howlnmad

The FCD will work fine for jacketed bullets. It's with lead that problems can arise.

The Crimping function of the die works fine for either lead or jacketed and gives no problems with either. It is the the post-sizing function (sizing AFTER the crimping) where problems arise. Crimping has nothing to do with this part. Problems can arise with jacketed, plated or lead, but are much more common with lead. Less common with plated and rare with jacketed.

balderclev, are you using a single stage press?

Lost Sheep

[balderclev]

Lost Sheep, yes Hornady LNL single stage

[wild willy]

If your bullets and case neck thickness are more than what the lee FCD is designed for it sizes the case when it goes in the die not after crimping.I have never had it do any thing with a jacketed bullet with lead it just bumps a little bit.One thing to watch for on the powder thru expander die some just barely fit in case and if the case isn't perfect in the shell holder it will ruin the case I just taper and polish the bottom 1/4 inch or so of the expander.And like others have said don't bottom out the sizing die.

[balderclev]

Fired (or tried to) my first rounds today. Hadn't noticed (got to look into that) that some of the cases had ring bulges on them and wouldn't load into the cylinder. I assume that is because I am caming over on the resizing die. Anyway, I will inspect the cases after each operation until I get the dies set up correctly.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by balderclev

Fired (or tried to) my first rounds today. Hadn't noticed (got to look into that) that some of the cases had ring bulges on them and wouldn't load into the cylinder. I assume that is because I am caming over on the resizing die. Anyway, I will inspect the cases after each operation until I get the dies set up correctly.

I see a red flag here. Not sure what it is, but camming over is NOT the cause.

Where exactly is the bulge?

What kind of cartridge are you using?

Take a handful of fired cases and use them as experimental samples.

Rechamber them. Try them in all chambers (revolver?). Do they fit?

Install and adjust your sizing die (with no case in the shell holder) so that, with the ram at top dead center, the die barely does NOT touch the shell holder.

Camming over is not necessary, but does not hurt anything, either.

Size one case. See if it chambers OK. If it does, do the rest. Check them.

If it doesn't, measure the case, figure out why it won't chamber. If a freshly sized case won't chamber, nothing you do after that will make it right. (OK, the FCD will EVENTUALLY make it right, but in the wrong way, and is sloppy procedure.)

At this point, your bullets should NOT be able to fit in the case.

Install the case-mouth flaring die.

Take one case, bell/flare the case mouth. Only a little, not even enough to get a bullet started. Adjust the die for a little more flare and pass the case into the die again. Then see if the base of the bullet will fit in the flared case mouth. Repeat until the base of the bullet does just barely fit.

Just for kicks, see it the flared case will chamber.

The flaring/belling die is now adjusted. Flare the rest of the cases.

Install the bullet seating/crimp die. The seating stem should be backed out far enough that a bullet will not be fully seated.

Place a bullet on a case mouth and run the case into the seating die, partially seating the bullet. Withdraw the bullet/case and check the seating depth. Also check the diameter of the case.

If the empty, flared case was able to chamber see if the cartridge will still chamber (note that the bullet is not fully seated yet). If you can, determine what is keeping the cartridge from chambering. This is not all that important if it is the cartridge length, but if it is the cartridge diameter, might be.

Repeat the seating process, adjusting the seating stem down further and further until the correct seating depth is achieved. Determining the proper seating depth is a subject for another question, but whatever depth is correct is your target.

Seat bullets in all the sample of cases.

Back the seating stem out of the seating die one full turn. Take one cartridge and run it into the seating die. Turn the seating die down until the crimping shoulder makes contact with the case mouth. (Take care that the seating stem is backed out further so it does not make contact with the bullet.)

When contact is made, pull the cartridge and see if it will chamber. If it won't, repeat, applying more crimp (by adjusting the die down).

When enough crimp is applied that the flare is gone, the cartridge SHOULD chamber.

If it doesn't chamber, figure out why.

If it is because the case if bulged from the bullet, there is a possibility that your bullets are too large. The FCD may be able to help with that, but the the cure may induce a problem of its own. When the FCD post-sizing makes the bullet too small, you can get leading, erosion or accuracy problems. It is FAR better to prevent problems than to cure them.

If you bullets are not actually too large for your bore, but the FCD post-sizing ring is too small, it can be reamed to the proper size. Lee Precision will help with that.

If, at any step in the process I have described, you notice anything odd, please post, email or PM before proceeding.

What I have described may not be the only way to diagnose the problem, but I believe it is the most thorough and will find the truth more certainly with its plodding step-by-step. So, while it is tedious, I believe it is worth it, else I would not have written.

When using a single stage press, the fourth die extends the process from three steps to four. If it is not necessary, I would consider leaving it out. Things that would legitimately make it necessary are (in my opinion) wanting a very strong crimp or having difficulty applying crimp at the same time as bullet seating. The FCD is great but spending the extra time to use it is only worth it if it is necessary. Carefully adjusting the dies and carefully choosing the size of the bullets usually makes it unnecessary. Even so, I am a fan of the FCD (see my links in my earlier post), but only those features that contribute the the quality of my ammo and CERTAINLY not any that take away quality.

Lost Sheep

[howlnmad]

"Fired (or tried to) my first rounds today. Hadn't noticed (got to look into that) that some of the cases had ring bulges on them and wouldn't load into the cylinder. I assume that is because I am caming over on the resizing die. Anyway, I will inspect the cases after each operation until I get the dies set up correctly."


Where exactly are these bulges? Any chance of posting a picture?

[balderclev]

Thanks for the info.

The bulges were about two thirds down from the neck opening and not always all the way around the case. Sorry I can't send a picture as I discarded all of them at the farm.

I also had some primers that would not detonate. The fired ones had a pristine firing pin mark on them while the ones that didn't fire had a more rounded look to the impressions. I'm using spp and a Hornady hand primer. Is it possible to seat them to deep with this tool? Seated several hundred 223 cartridges with this tool with no issues.

Going to start over today. I have several cases that have been resized and primed with no bulges. I am leaning towards the neck sizing as the problem.

[howlnmad]

As to the primers that didn't go bang. The cause of this is usually a primer not seated deep enough. The firing pin actually finishes seating the primer. They may have possibly fired if you had tried to refire them.

[balderclev]

Lost Sheep, Thanks for the detailed instructions. I'll try it this evening.

[balderclev]

howlnmad,

Thanks for that info. I was thinking I had seated them too far. I had not cleaned out the primer pockets except what the tumbling did so that may be the problem. I had cleaned the 223 primer pockets before priming so that does fit the behavior I was seeing.

[steelman762]

I know exactly what happen because the same happen to me. The bullet seating die is set to low on the case. When the ram comes up you will feel more resistance than you should just before the completed stroke. You end up shoving the shoulder back causing a slight ring. I had slightly different length cases. I had set the die for one case where it worked great on that one round or a few rounds with the same lenght. Some were longer and took away the clearance the others had causing the ring or muffin shoulder I call it. I keep the seater backed out enough to accept the longest case. This is why the FCD. Those 223 cases crush easily. I only set the crimp die for a slight crimp. You don't need a heavy crimp. You should not crimp bullets with out a canalure you may distort them in doing so. The primer problem might have also been the cases were not fully resized. Make shure the case goes all the way inside the die. We all have done the same things one time or another.

[Lost Sheep]

steelman762, I think you misunderstood. The O.P. has experience loading .223 Remington, but the question is about pistol cases. (The O.P. still has not told us what caliber, though.)

I look forward to his next post.

Yes, fouling in the primer pocket or primers not fully seated does cause misfires, hangfires and such. Usually a second strike will succeed.

Primers should be slightly BELOW flush when properly seated.

Lost Sheep

[balderclev]

Lost Sheep,

These are 38 Special rounds (Hornady 38 CAL 158 GR HP/XTP) in front of 3.3 grains of IMR 700X using once fired brass with SPP. These rounds are producing about 600fps. My friend wanted some very light rounds for his wife for a Ruger LCR.

I have the seater die set to seat the bullets with a small part of the cannelure still showing above the case and am crimping (BTW, I do not crimp 223 rounds so this is my first experience). I don't have much choice here in order to match the recommended COL of 1.450 for the bullets and be able to crimp on the cannelure.

I will look carefully at the cases at each step when I load again. I did look at some of the previous ones I had sized and not yet seated with a bullet and none had the "ring bulge" on the case.

It obviously is either in the seating operation or in neck sizing.

Thanks again for the help.

[Lost Sheep]

What is it that you are calling "neck sizing"? Straight-walled cases can be said to have a "neck" (where the bullet is in contact with the brass), but I am not sure what you are calling the neck and which die you are using to "size" it.

Die # one sizes the fired case and deprimes it.

Die # two bells or flares the case mouth (is this what you are calling neck sizing?)

Die # three seats the bullet and (optionally) crimps the case mouth onto the bullet.

Die # four crimps the case mouth onto (into) the bullet's crimp groove.

It is worthy of note that at 600 fps, even in such a light gun as the LCR, you probably don't need any crimp at all. The "neck tension" is likely plenty to hold the bullet.

The case sizing (die #1) squishes the case to smaller than the bullet diameter. The case flaring (die #2) expands the case mouth, but does not stretch the case larger than the bullet's diameter very far down the case. 1/8" at most.

When you seat the bullet, you are pressing it in and the bullet stretches the brass some, but since brass is elastic it will grip the bullet tightly.

At this point, if you try to drive the bullet deeper or pull it out it will take about 40-50 pounds (I am told) to move it. This is without crimp.

At this point, if you run the cartridge into the seat/crimp die and just barely straighten the flare, you can fire theses rounds. Light loads don't need more bullet retention than this.

Now, when you run this round into the Lee FCD with the post-sizing ring you squeeze the brass cartridge AND the bullet. If it's a lead bullet, it doesn't spring back, but the brass does, loosening the tightness of the brass' grip on the bullet. This phenomenon exists with jacketed bullets, too, but not nearly to the extent it does with lead bullets. This is why many people eschew the Lee FCD in favor of other brands, of Lee FCDs with the post-sizing ring knocked out or using a combo seat-crimp die to crimp only or doing away with the 4th step altogether and seating and crimping in the third step.

I recommend the latter for those using a single stage press. It cuts the number of strokes you have to make by 25%.

Lost Sheep

[balderclev]

Lost Sheep,

Yes I meant flaring.

I am pretty sure I was flaring way too much. I wonder if this was causing the buckling of the case.

Thanks for the very good information.