Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD

balazona · November 5, 2009, 02:19 AM

Are they any good for that purpose?

jrothWA · November 5, 2009, 02:46 AM

the sabots using HP pistol bullets like Hornady?

Just the mass of the slug is good for HD, either the standard Forster style or the Brenneke.

Is there other residences nearby then may want to consider using the various buckshot, like #4 for close-up and 00 for 40 yds??

Explain terrrain & house lay-out, for more understanding from us.

sholling · November 5, 2009, 03:34 AM

A slug is going to over penetrate like crazy. That's fine if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is down the road a piece. Not so good if you live in the suburbs. I live in a housing tract and really like my neighbors so I load my shotgun (12ga) so that the first 2 rounds up (last in the mag) will be #4 buckshot. #4 will ruin a bad guy's day when hit from 10-15 feet but will not likely go through him. A miss will penetrate a wall, the room behind it and possibly the interior wall behind that but won't have much energy left. That means that the sweet little old lady next door is safe. A neighbor in an apartment wouldn't be as lucky.

The next 5 up are 00 buck just in case. If the first two haven't stopped the threat then I can escalate lethality, penetration, and the risk of over penetration. I keep few slugs handy for punching through walls and furniture but won't reach for them unless specifically needed..

MTT TL · November 5, 2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

A slug is going to over penetrate like crazy. That's fine if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is down the road a piece. Not so good if you live in the suburbs. I live in a housing tract and really like my neighbors so I load my shotgun (12ga) so that the first 2 rounds up (last in the mag) will be #4 buckshot. #4 will ruin a bad guy's day when hit from 10-15 feet but will not likely go through him. A miss will penetrate a wall, the room behind it and possibly the interior wall behind that but won't have much energy left. That means that the sweet little old lady next door is safe. A neighbor in an apartment wouldn't be as lucky.

*sigh*

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.

What I have seen is that a 12 GA slug at under 60 feet with a COM hit results in target down nearly ever single time, the chance of the threat getting back up any time soon is very slim. They are exceptions. But two rounds will eliminate the exceptions.

So in answer to your question, yes it is an excellent tool for that purpose.

hogdogs · November 5, 2009, 07:17 AM

I choose buckshot for HD just to mitigate the risk of penetrating multiple walls. If you can hit the BG with buck, you can hit them with the slug. The slug is going to do the job of stopping the threat real well. The only time buck would out perform slug is if your POI is a non lethal location on the body. If it were to pass thru and not hit vitals or bone than the buck may have out performed as it may spread enuff for one or more shot may have found a vital organ or major bone system.
Brent

JerseyDrez · November 5, 2009, 09:18 AM

Ive never seen any pictures or range reports with a HP slugs expansion, but whether its HP or not, its going to do tons of damage.

I dont think it really matters. The HP might mushroom well but its still a brutal 1oz piece of lead getting shot at [around] 1600fps.

Just the sound of that should make a BG cringe!

hogdogs · November 5, 2009, 09:27 AM

Jersey,

This isn't a scientific test... It is just a slug recovered from a pine tree me and Junior cut down with shot guns... the pic is of a 12 gauge 1 oz from a 2 3/4 inch shell... As you see it did deform and a hunk did part ways... the little dot in the center is a 7 1/2 shot pellet... And I agree... even if it don't mushroom... It is gonna leave a mark!
I like to think of it as "When your projectile is weighed in ounces rather than grains... it is a formidable choice"...
Brent

JerseyDrez · November 5, 2009, 09:52 AM

Great pic, Hogdogs! I cant tell you how long Ive been waiting to see a HP slug after impact.

Thanks a lot for sharing the picture! And your quote made me chuckle, youre so right.

hogdogs · November 5, 2009, 10:09 AM

This one shows a bit more size proportion with the cig pack and nut cracker in the image.
Brent

Catalyst · November 5, 2009, 10:32 AM

Quote:

*sigh*

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.

I hope you aren't advocating the use of high caliber rounds without consideration of what's behind your target. While it might be a rare occurance, I'd like to hope that's due to the foresight home defenders have put into their selection of ammunition according to their particular geography. *I* don't want to be the first line on someone's "Overpenetration casualty" google search result.

[edit: HAHA!! Ok, I did just google "Overpenetration causalty" and it turns out I AM the first line in results.]

JAG06 · November 5, 2009, 11:09 AM

I'd stick with buck shot for HD.

sholling · November 5, 2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them. In fact any round penetrating a series of walls and just happening to hit an unlucky neighbor is such a rare occurrence that it almost never happens either. I would speculate that you have a much better chance of killing your neighbor by accidentally running them over with a car, but I have no solid research to back that up. Just like there is no research to support the "hitting the neighbor accidentally" thing.

So how many innocent neighbors have to die unnecessarily for you to consider their lives relevant? The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safety of everyone down range of the bad guy. If there are people behind a bad guy it's simply irresponsible to ignore the fact that a 500gr slug moving 1300-1600fps is going to be a hazard to neighbors when their are equally effective alternatives.

spacecoast · November 5, 2009, 01:15 PM

Quote:

I see this all the time but no one has ever shown me where a slug has ever gone through a person, interior walls, exterior walls and into a neighbor. In fact no one has ever shown me where a neighbor was ever injured by a shotgun slug fired by their neighbor, except when the neighbor was actually trying to hit them.

No doubt the odds of hitting someone are very low, but I would be *extremely* upset just to find a slug somewhere in my house and a nice big hole in the wall resulting from my neighbor unwisely using slugs for HD when there are much better alternatives (better not only for less risk of over-penetration, but from the standpoint of a higher likelihood of hitting the BG). Stick with buckshot - and I haven't yet decided if #4 is a good starter round or not. But the almost universal opinion is NOT to use slugs.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/shotgun_slugs.htm - near bottom of page

http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/pow...e-defense.html

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_ammo.htm - middle of page

Lee Lapin · November 5, 2009, 01:40 PM

But the almost universal opinion is NOT to use slugs.

Never talked to Louis Awerbuck about defensive shotgun ammo, I see.

lpl

spacecoast · November 5, 2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Never talked to Louis Awerbuck about defensive shotgun ammo, I see.

Nah, he won't talk to me unless I am waving some $$$

Lee Lapin · November 5, 2009, 01:56 PM

Nah, he won't talk to me unless I am waving some $$$

Have you ever asked?
===================

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satelli...gs=pagenum%3D2
Shotguns For Home Defense
Here's how to choose and use the most effective tool for stopping an attack.
By Dave Spaulding
Posted: 10-31-06
/snip/
What about slugs for home defense? Many are concerned about the overpenetration potential of a projectile that is weighed in ounces instead of grains. At one time I would have recommended against slugs, but I've had a lot of conversations with wildlife conservation officers across the Midwest who investigate accidental shootings during hunting season. They tell me that shotgun slugs don't overpenetrate the human torso like many think. Quite often, these soft lead slugs flatten out and stay in the body or are found just beyond the body--not always, mind you, but more often than many think.

Anti-personnel, hollowpoint slugs made for the military and police communities are an excellent choice for home defense and are proven man-stoppers in a large number of actual shooting incidents.
/snip/
-------------------------------------------
http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot....-for-home.html
Wednesday, July 9, 2008
Firearm recommendations for home defense, Part 2
/snip/
However, FTI [Firearms Tactical Institute- lpl] believes that slugs are a poor home defense ammo choice because of the over-penetration problem. I respectfully disagree. If someone's heavy-set or obese, or wearing thick winter clothing, buckshot may not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs or nerve centers: so I personally recommend slugs as a very viable choice, provided that you can be accurate with them. (We'll deal with training and practice tomorrow). I'm prepared to live with the risk of over-penetration in the interests of winning the fight, which to me is a higher priority. /snip/
--------------------------------------------

I'm not about to say that anyone HAS to use slugs for defensive roles. But for someone who has considered their own situation carefully, slugs might be a reasonable choice for defensive use. There are some folks who have done their own analysis and decided that slugs do have a place in the ammunition selection kept available for their defensive shotguns. Other folks decide differently. As with most anything inside the bounds of safety and effectiveness, there isn't really any wrong decision to be made- just different decisions to fit the needs and circumstances of different people. The 'almost universal decision' is better said- make your own decision based on your own circumstances.

lpl

spacecoast · November 5, 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Anti-personnel, hollowpoint slugs made for the military and police communities are an excellent choice for home defense and are proven man-stoppers in a large number of actual shooting incidents.

No argument with them being man-stoppers, that is *if* you hit the BG with *every* shot. I guess if I was Louis Awerbuck I wouldn't have to worry about that, but I'm not.

Some more to think about - the slug penetrated all the way through TWELVE layers of sheet rock.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

MTT TL · November 5, 2009, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Ok, I did just google "Overpenetration causalty" and it turns out I AM the first line in results

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Quote:

So how many innocent neighbors have to die unnecessarily for you to consider their lives relevant?

See arguments like this don't hold much water with me. I consider it on par with the reasoning that .50 calibers can down an airliner. Sure a .50 caliber rifle could down an airliner but it has never actually happened and the probability of someone being able to do it is extremely low. A series of improbable events would have to occur simultaneously (1-your house broken into, 2-the bad guy standing in the same line of fire as your neighbor, 3- The line of fire being including a penetrable wall or window 4- etc, etc.). Patrick Flanigan would have a tough time making such a shot.

Quote:

The bottom line is that you are responsible for the safety of everyone down range of the bad guy.

By the same logic would you not shoot to protect yourself on the street, knowing that you don't have a safe backstop? What about a shopping mall or a school? No safe backstop there.

But what it really comes down to is this:

Quote:

As with most anything inside the bounds of safety and effectiveness, there isn't really any wrong decision to be made- just different decisions to fit the needs and circumstances of different people. The 'almost universal decision' is better said- make your own decision based on your own circumstances.

And that about says it all.

doh_312 · November 5, 2009, 05:49 PM

I keep the magazine full of 00 buckshot. Side saddle has three additional buckshots and two slugs. Not that I doubt seven buckshots can handle the situation, but it is nice to have the slugs should the need arise for them.

Overpenetration is obviously something to worry about. But in the heat of it I do not think that will be the thought on you mind. If it comes down to you or him and an unknown backstop should the slug leave the confines of you house, I think most of us would pull the trigger.

A perfect backstop is not always there, and try as a shooter might, innocent bystanders do get hurt by stray bullets. In a shoot out, the best way to leave bystanders unharmed is to have no bystanders in the first place.

sholling · November 5, 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

See arguments like this don't hold much water with me. I consider it on par with the reasoning that .50 calibers can down an airliner. Sure a .50 caliber rifle could down an airliner but it has never actually happened and the probability of someone being able to do it is extremely low. A series of improbable events would have to occur simultaneously (1-your house broken into, 2-the bad guy standing in the same line of fire as your neighbor, 3- The line of fire being including a penetrable wall or window 4- etc, etc.).

A miss with a slug traveling 1600fps can penetrate 6-9 walls. Pray to god that I'm never on the jury if you miss and hit a neighbor. Not because stuff happens, because stuff can happen, accidents can happen - but because you choose to recklessly disregard the safety of your neighbors.

Old Grump · November 5, 2009, 07:27 PM

Disregarding a hit on a wall stud, paneling, exterior wall, or insulation a 2 3/4" 12 gauge Foster slug will penetrate 12 sheets of 5/8" drywall fired from 20'. As mentioned above that is 6 walls. If you are going to be using slugs as your boogerman ammo then soft slugs like a foster with a hollow point is your best choice and don't miss. Poor ballistic coefficient maybe but at 15' that does not matter, an ounce of lead is going to take some persuading to slow down.

As for heavy set semi armored heavily clothed boogerman invading your house, its more likely to be a cop at that size. Most goombah's breaking into houses are younger, not overly well dressed and usually smaller than the average well fed suburbanite. Unless he is on something really dumb like PCP or meth a load of anything from #4 to 000 shot in their bread basket is going to stop them or at least slow them down enough the average 11 year old girl could kick his tail up around his ears. a couple of quick follow up shots to the initial shot and it will be "Clean up on aisle three." and then a trip to Sears for a new carpet.

MTT TL · November 5, 2009, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Pray to god that I'm never on the jury if you miss and hit a neighbor.

I am feeling pretty comfortable on that.

Quote:

Disregarding a hit on a wall stud, paneling, exterior wall, or insulation a 2 3/4" 12 gauge Foster slug will penetrate 12 sheets of 5/8" drywall fired from 20'

Not really. The "test" (admitted by the testers as very unscientific) failed to take in a number of important factors. If you give it some thought you can probably come up with the reasons why it was very unrealistic all on your own.

ADB · November 5, 2009, 08:53 PM

I never understand the obsession some people have with massive overkill in "home defense" loads. It's ridiculous to claim that only a hollow point slug, or only 000 buckshot, will take a person down. The fact is that at home defense ranges, ANY kind of 12 gauge load is going to have nearly the same effect. Whether it's in the form of a single slug, 9 buckshot pellets, or 100 pellets of 7.5 shot, you're still dumping 450+ grains of lead into a spot on your target that's going to probably be less than 4 inches wide at HD distances. The math doesn't change that much. Statistically, the chance of a kill with buckshot is exactly the same as the chance of a kill with a slug hitting the same location.

sholling · November 6, 2009, 01:25 AM

Quote:

I never understand the obsession some people have with massive overkill in "home defense" loads.

Donald Quinelle syndrome (The Survivors).

robfromga · November 6, 2009, 09:39 AM

The post in this thread by the user wanting to use slugs as a HD load show his/her lack of respect for the innocent a round near by and a lack of maturity. The bump in the night goto weapon at 2am when your very groggy and not going to be able to aim is a shottie, loaded with buck. Why? Because you will not be able to aim well enough in the few seconds that you'll have to stand, grab, aim and fire, and hit someone with a slug. Wont happen, you will miss at least one time. If you dont think so you've played too many video games and watch too much tv.

If you live alone with no one close by, than a slug is a safer load, however it still isnt ideal. What your failing to understand is the beauty of a shotgun. You have a slight amount of "flub" room. Go pattern you weapon with several loads and see the results. If you think you'll be able to aim the weapon with little to no margin of error, cause your life will rely on it, than get a rifle.

Your line of thought shows your inexperience and multiple tactical mistakes, that WILL result in injury to yourself and to others. A know it all attitude has no place around firearms. People dont report on shooting down airplanes with .50 cal rifles, because most civilians dont try. As in they dont want to maliciously kill innocent people. A will placed .45 round will disable a aircraft easily if in range. Tell us where you live so we can move.

November 5, 2009, 02:19 AM	#1
balazona Member Join Date: May 5, 2008 Location: Bahrain Posts: 85	Hollow Point Rifled Slugs for HD Are they any good for that purpose?

November 5, 2009, 02:46 AM	#2
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Are these the winchester HP rounds or.. the sabots using HP pistol bullets like Hornady? Just the mass of the slug is good for HD, either the standard Forster style or the Brenneke. Is there other residences nearby then may want to consider using the various buckshot, like #4 for close-up and 00 for 40 yds?? Explain terrrain & house lay-out, for more understanding from us.

November 5, 2009, 03:34 AM	#3
sholling Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 1999 Location: Hemet (middle of nowhere) California Posts: 4,261	A slug is going to over penetrate like crazy. That's fine if you live out in the country and the nearest neighbor is down the road a piece. Not so good if you live in the suburbs. I live in a housing tract and really like my neighbors so I load my shotgun (12ga) so that the first 2 rounds up (last in the mag) will be #4 buckshot. #4 will ruin a bad guy's day when hit from 10-15 feet but will not likely go through him. A miss will penetrate a wall, the room behind it and possibly the interior wall behind that but won't have much energy left. That means that the sweet little old lady next door is safe. A neighbor in an apartment wouldn't be as lucky. The next 5 up are 00 buck just in case. If the first two haven't stopped the threat then I can escalate lethality, penetration, and the risk of over penetration. I keep few slugs handy for punching through walls and furniture but won't reach for them unless specifically needed.. __________________ Proud Life Member: National Rifle Association, California Rifle & Pistol Association, and the Second Amendment Foundation. Annual Member: Revolutionary War Veterans Association (Project Appleseed) and the Madison Society.

November 5, 2009, 09:18 AM	#6
JerseyDrez Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2009 Location: Hmmm? Posts: 510	Ive never seen any pictures or range reports with a HP slugs expansion, but whether its HP or not, its going to do tons of damage. I dont think it really matters. The HP might mushroom well but its still a brutal 1oz piece of lead getting shot at [around] 1600fps. Just the sound of that should make a BG cringe! __________________ "I don't know what situation you'd be in where you'd be facing a bad guy and he'd have the time to notice your laser shaking and evaluate you as having low confidence. "

November 5, 2009, 09:52 AM	#8
JerseyDrez Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2009 Location: Hmmm? Posts: 510	Great pic, Hogdogs! I cant tell you how long Ive been waiting to see a HP slug after impact. Thanks a lot for sharing the picture! And your quote made me chuckle, youre so right. __________________ "I don't know what situation you'd be in where you'd be facing a bad guy and he'd have the time to notice your laser shaking and evaluate you as having low confidence. "

November 5, 2009, 07:17 AM	#5
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I choose buckshot for HD just to mitigate the risk of penetrating multiple walls. If you can hit the BG with buck, you can hit them with the slug. The slug is going to do the job of stopping the threat real well. The only time buck would out perform slug is if your POI is a non lethal location on the body. If it were to pass thru and not hit vitals or bone than the buck may have out performed as it may spread enuff for one or more shot may have found a vital organ or major bone system. Brent

November 5, 2009, 09:27 AM	#7
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Jersey, This isn't a scientific test... It is just a slug recovered from a pine tree me and Junior cut down with shot guns... the pic is of a 12 gauge 1 oz from a 2 3/4 inch shell... As you see it did deform and a hunk did part ways... the little dot in the center is a 7 1/2 shot pellet... And I agree... even if it don't mushroom... It is gonna leave a mark! I like to think of it as "When your projectile is weighed in ounces rather than grains... it is a formidable choice"... Brent

November 5, 2009, 10:09 AM	#9
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	This one shows a bit more size proportion with the cig pack and nut cracker in the image. Brent

November 5, 2009, 11:09 AM	#11
JAG06 Member Join Date: April 22, 2007 Posts: 31	I'd stick with buck shot for HD.

November 5, 2009, 01:40 PM	#14
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	But the almost universal opinion is NOT to use slugs. Never talked to Louis Awerbuck about defensive shotgun ammo, I see. lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

November 5, 2009, 01:56 PM	#16
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Nah, he won't talk to me unless I am waving some $$$ Have you ever asked? =================== http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satelli...gs=pagenum%3D2 Shotguns For Home Defense Here's how to choose and use the most effective tool for stopping an attack. By Dave Spaulding Posted: 10-31-06 /snip/ What about slugs for home defense? Many are concerned about the overpenetration potential of a projectile that is weighed in ounces instead of grains. At one time I would have recommended against slugs, but I've had a lot of conversations with wildlife conservation officers across the Midwest who investigate accidental shootings during hunting season. They tell me that shotgun slugs don't overpenetrate the human torso like many think. Quite often, these soft lead slugs flatten out and stay in the body or are found just beyond the body--not always, mind you, but more often than many think. Anti-personnel, hollowpoint slugs made for the military and police communities are an excellent choice for home defense and are proven man-stoppers in a large number of actual shooting incidents. /snip/ ------------------------------------------- http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot....-for-home.html Wednesday, July 9, 2008 Firearm recommendations for home defense, Part 2 /snip/ However, FTI [Firearms Tactical Institute- lpl] believes that slugs are a poor home defense ammo choice because of the over-penetration problem. I respectfully disagree. If someone's heavy-set or obese, or wearing thick winter clothing, buckshot may not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs or nerve centers: so I personally recommend slugs as a very viable choice, provided that you can be accurate with them. (We'll deal with training and practice tomorrow). I'm prepared to live with the risk of over-penetration in the interests of winning the fight, which to me is a higher priority. /snip/ -------------------------------------------- I'm not about to say that anyone HAS to use slugs for defensive roles. But for someone who has considered their own situation carefully, slugs might be a reasonable choice for defensive use. There are some folks who have done their own analysis and decided that slugs do have a place in the ammunition selection kept available for their defensive shotguns. Other folks decide differently. As with most anything inside the bounds of safety and effectiveness, there isn't really any wrong decision to be made- just different decisions to fit the needs and circumstances of different people. The 'almost universal decision' is better said- make your own decision based on your own circumstances. lpl __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill. Last edited by Lee Lapin; November 5, 2009 at 02:38 PM. Reason: typo..

November 5, 2009, 05:49 PM	#19
doh_312 Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2008 Posts: 312	I keep the magazine full of 00 buckshot. Side saddle has three additional buckshots and two slugs. Not that I doubt seven buckshots can handle the situation, but it is nice to have the slugs should the need arise for them. Overpenetration is obviously something to worry about. But in the heat of it I do not think that will be the thought on you mind. If it comes down to you or him and an unknown backstop should the slug leave the confines of you house, I think most of us would pull the trigger. A perfect backstop is not always there, and try as a shooter might, innocent bystanders do get hurt by stray bullets. In a shoot out, the best way to leave bystanders unharmed is to have no bystanders in the first place.

November 5, 2009, 07:27 PM	#21
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	Disregarding a hit on a wall stud, paneling, exterior wall, or insulation a 2 3/4" 12 gauge Foster slug will penetrate 12 sheets of 5/8" drywall fired from 20'. As mentioned above that is 6 walls. If you are going to be using slugs as your boogerman ammo then soft slugs like a foster with a hollow point is your best choice and don't miss. Poor ballistic coefficient maybe but at 15' that does not matter, an ounce of lead is going to take some persuading to slow down. As for heavy set semi armored heavily clothed boogerman invading your house, its more likely to be a cop at that size. Most goombah's breaking into houses are younger, not overly well dressed and usually smaller than the average well fed suburbanite. Unless he is on something really dumb like PCP or meth a load of anything from #4 to 000 shot in their bread basket is going to stop them or at least slow them down enough the average 11 year old girl could kick his tail up around his ears. a couple of quick follow up shots to the initial shot and it will be "Clean up on aisle three." and then a trip to Sears for a new carpet. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

November 5, 2009, 08:53 PM	#23
ADB Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2009 Posts: 399	I never understand the obsession some people have with massive overkill in "home defense" loads. It's ridiculous to claim that only a hollow point slug, or only 000 buckshot, will take a person down. The fact is that at home defense ranges, ANY kind of 12 gauge load is going to have nearly the same effect. Whether it's in the form of a single slug, 9 buckshot pellets, or 100 pellets of 7.5 shot, you're still dumping 450+ grains of lead into a spot on your target that's going to probably be less than 4 inches wide at HD distances. The math doesn't change that much. Statistically, the chance of a kill with buckshot is exactly the same as the chance of a kill with a slug hitting the same location.

November 6, 2009, 09:39 AM	#25
robfromga Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2009 Location: Augusta, Ga Posts: 240	The post in this thread by the user wanting to use slugs as a HD load show his/her lack of respect for the innocent a round near by and a lack of maturity. The bump in the night goto weapon at 2am when your very groggy and not going to be able to aim is a shottie, loaded with buck. Why? Because you will not be able to aim well enough in the few seconds that you'll have to stand, grab, aim and fire, and hit someone with a slug. Wont happen, you will miss at least one time. If you dont think so you've played too many video games and watch too much tv. If you live alone with no one close by, than a slug is a safer load, however it still isnt ideal. What your failing to understand is the beauty of a shotgun. You have a slight amount of "flub" room. Go pattern you weapon with several loads and see the results. If you think you'll be able to aim the weapon with little to no margin of error, cause your life will rely on it, than get a rifle. Your line of thought shows your inexperience and multiple tactical mistakes, that WILL result in injury to yourself and to others. A know it all attitude has no place around firearms. People dont report on shooting down airplanes with .50 cal rifles, because most civilians dont try. As in they dont want to maliciously kill innocent people. A will placed .45 round will disable a aircraft easily if in range. Tell us where you live so we can move.