Safety & muzzleloaders - are we buying bombs?

[Luciano]

T/C Omega has a safe barrel... somehow I happen to know that 150 grains of Triple 7, the hottest ML substitute with a 250 sabot and a good chunk of a broken brass ramroad on top of it didn't do much other than a brutal recoil. Oh, yes it damaged the Nikon scope on top of it...

[mykeal]

T/C Omega has a safe barrel... somehow I happen to know that 150 grains of Triple 7, the hottest ML substitute with a 250 sabot and a good chunk of a broken brass ramroad on top of it didn't do much other than a brutal recoil. Oh, yes it damaged the Nikon scope on top of it...

Your single incident simply says you may have been very lucky. In no way does one event prove the entire population of T/C Omegas are resilient to such abuse.

[jaguarxk120]

Has anyone shot over a cronograph to see what MV those 250gr bullets over 150gr of T7 are producing?

[UtahHunting]

Hi there, long time reader and I finally registered.

In regards the the Randy Wakeman articles, I personally think it is clear he has a personal vendetta against CVA for some reason. If you believe what he writes then don't buy one. I believe they are decent rifles for the price. Are they as nice as a T/C or a Knight? No. But then again they are not as much money either. They are decent guns if you are not looking to spend as much money or just getting into the sport.

One other thing on Randy Wakeman, he also wrote an article you can find on google regarding Powerbelt Bullets. Powerbelt carries the CVA name as you are probably aware however they are not manufactured in Spain. In fact they are manufactured in the great state of Idaho. He rips these bullets to pieces just as he does the CVA rifles. And there is nobody on this planet that will convince me those bullets are junk. In fact many many fellow hunters I know it's all they use. It is clear he is out to trash CVA.

[FL-Flinter]

Let me jump in here as a muzzleloader builder & gunsmith along with my 29 years of burning black powder in both ML's and cartridge guns.

I've replied to many such of these posts and it's the same old BS all the time, nothing is ever new and the facts are twisted and clouded by personal vendetta often times with a financial motive.

In all the years that I've been assembling mass-production kits and repairing factory-built mass-production guns, it does not take long for patterns to establish themselves and by far the most prevalent safety issues with the commonly known name brands are associated with the locks, triggers and cylinder mechanisms on C&B revolvers. Some of the generics, those with no or a little known name, come from Italy, Spain & Brazil and are of equal and sometimes higher quality than the commonly known name brand mass-production guns.

The major barrel safety issues are associated with those coming from the middle and far east region. Some examples are barrels made from poorly manufactured tubing that is not intended to be used for gun barrels or much of anything else for that matter. Breechplugs that are improperly made and some secured by nothing more than junk solder or braze, no threads. Revolvers that come out of the box with a .44cal cylinder and a .36cal barrel and so forth. These are the excessively dangerous guns!

Yes, I have seen many guns, both mass-production and custom/semi-custom that suffered catastrophic barrel failures and the majority of those failures are attributed to improper operation and/or improper maintenance/repair. Just the same as you cannot fault Dodge because you ran into a tree while playing with your ipod, you cannot fault a manufacturer because some idiot short-started or charged the bore with smokeless powder!

I started in black powder with a CVA Kentucky flintlock and over the years I have owned and worked on numerous mass-production guns. The highest quality and best shooting production gun I ever had was a no-name generic long rifle made in Italy. The lowest quality and most dangerous was a Pedersoli Kodiak and the same very dangerous sear/tumbler manufacturing issues have been seen in numerous other Pedersoli sidelocks too. My best overall quality praise for a mass-production gun goes to Lyman.

First off, nothing mechanical is immune to failure and the ultimate responsibility for safety lies with the user - thus is why we stress the point that the muzzle is ALWAYS pointed in a safe direction. I don't care if it's the latest wiz-bang loudenboomer mega-magnum bolt action or an original 1759 flintlock, either one can suffer an unexpected mechanical failure just the same as either one can be destroyed by an operator who is ignorant as to the proper operation or an idiot who intentionally creates a problem. On the flip-side you have those problems that result from lack of workmanship/quality control such as in the case of the Pedersoli locks being made with insufficient/incorrect sear/tumbler engagement and the middle/far east guns intentionally made incorrectly and/or with known dangerous materials.

One is only left to question why Mr. Wakeman singles out CVA when there are truly dangerous guns coming from the middle & far east and still being sold today?

I'm not endorsing CVA by any means but if we're going to talk about safety issues, let's apply the standards fairly and assign the points of importance where they belong. You want to worry about dangerous barrels ... Worry about the barrel bombs coming from the middle and far east regions or those who think a barrel can be made from hydraulic tubing that cannot handle the shock-loading associated with gun barrel applications. Worry about a little speck of rust causing the sear plunger to bind in the T/C locks resulting in the sear failing to engage the tumbler. Worry about your Pedersoli not having a properly formed sear/tumbler. Worry about the ignorant or idiots who go on the internet and read about some moron who claims it's safe to use "a little smokeless with the black powder". Worry about the "bubba gunsmiths" and the modern gunsmiths who are ignorant to the particulars of proper muzzleloader gunsmithing.

Let's be fair here and also apply some common sense. CVA guns are far from "top shelf" and I am by no means endorsing them but don't you think that if they suffered the numerous barrel failures as Mr. Wakeman is alluding, wouldn't CVA have long-since been bankrupt by law suits?

Why does Mr. Wakeman not make such a fuss over the numerous Remington 1100 receivers that broke or the Remington shotgun barrels that split or any of the other problems encountered by chance or design by other mass-production manufacturers?

If you want a top quality gun, you've got to look at something other than a mass-production gun. I don't care what brand it is, mass-production means everything is built to time and a selling price so there is a lot of compromise going on. Also keep in mind that not every custom/semi-custom gun-builder/gunsmith uses top quality parts or does professional quality work either. Additionally you must never ignore the fact that no matter how much time, effort or money is spent trying to obtain the highest quality parts, they are not immune to unforeseen failure nor will they protect you from stupidity.

[Mr Odd Six]

FL You are a hard act to follow

you are 100% correct.

The flatlanders have no concept of how different a black powder firearm is to a smokeless.

Doc Law,

Im at rondies several times a month, and shoot around production guns all the time.

I dont need to be that close to them, to see they are the same junk they have been, always.

A $600 semi-custom hand built rifle, will be made of better grade parts than any $1000 production gun.

Come by the homestead and fire my flinter a couple 100 times flawlessly.

[Hawg]

I dont need to be that close to them, to see they are the same junk they have been, always.

I wouldn't go that far. None of them are period correct but calling them junk is uncalled for.

[mykeal]

I'm with you, Hawg. I'm always amazed by people who admit they don't use the guns, haven't even handled them, but can tell from miles away how bad they are. They just don't realize how stupid that makes them look. Everybody's entitled to have an opinion, and to state it, but it should be based on some real experience with the item being discussed.

Oh, and good luck finding a $600 semi-custom, whatever that is.

[Mr Odd Six]

See the picture above $672 from MLS.

WHen you witness misfires, malfunctions, and folks leaving because their store boughts fail, you dont have to join in thier misery to understand it.

If your once a year hunters, then you can work with the cheap junk.

I prefer to avoid the hassle

[mykeal]

You got your gun from the real estate Multiple Listing Service? I'm beginning to understand.

[Hawg]

WHen you witness misfires, malfunctions, and folks leaving because their store boughts fail, you dont have to join in thier misery to understand it.

Probably because they didn't know the correct procedures for using a muzzleloader in the first place. All I've ever had have been store boughts and the only problems I've had other than the occasional bad cap have been my fault not the guns. BTW, there is no such thing s a semi custom. It's either custom or it isn't.

[FrontierGander]

doesnt help either when the Dip behind the counter justs picks things out for the buyer just so he can make a good sale for the day.

[DrLaw]

I was going to be a smart-a$$ and say something about semi-custom guns must be the ones without good wood to metal fit (front of the lockplate) or screws protruding past the lockplate (behind the hammer) and not having a particularly good finish, but then I thought better of it.

So I will stick with my production guns that outside of a crud ASM .36 Navy I once had and gleefully got rid of, I have actually fired, used, and have not failed.

The Doc is out now.

[Mr Odd Six]

Muzzleloader Supply in Ozark AK.

But I thought you guys knew where to get the good stuff at

Probably because they didn't know the correct procedures for using a muzzleloader in the first place.

Yup mostly firest or second year flatlanders. The seasoned guys sell them thier production starter guns.

occasional bad cap have been my fault not the guns.

Then the caps must be in real sad shape. The fun of MLing is to learn to fire in all weather, and all year round. I gave up on cap guns in the 70s.

BTW, there is no such thing s a semi custom. It's either custom or it isn't.

A term used on the flintlock forums boards.

You can get a kit gun form Jim Chambers or MLS, and have a degree of the work done for you. This is considered a semi-custom, some call them kit guns, but then they are confused with production guns sold in the white.

Buying the raw wood, and parts and making the enitre thing from scratch is custom.

But we need not burden oursleves with jargen.

[Hawg]

Yup mostly firest or second year flatlanders. The seasoned guys sell them thier production starter guns.

Then why berate the guns when it's the shooters fault? Aside from the sights(which are easily fixed)I've never had a real problem I didn't cause myself with my Investarms Hawken I bought back in the 80's.

Then the caps must be in real sad shape. The fun of MLing is to learn to fire in all weather, and all year round. I gave up on cap guns in the 70s.

Remington caps after they've been rattled around for a few years sometimes lose the foil. I don't like Remington caps but bought a bunch of them on sale several years years ago. When I get low on CCI's I start using the Remingtons and sometimes forget to check. I've never had a bad CCI cap that I can remember. I hunt in all kinds of weather except snow and that's cuz we don't get much of it. I have no problems shooting in the rain but I'm not going to do it just to be doin it. I'd like to have a flinter but I can't get real bp locally and can't afford to buy enough to get it online

[mykeal]

Muzzleloader Supply in Ozark AK.

Hmmm. Never been to Ozark, Alaska. Wonder where that is? I have to admit, if they have 'the good stuff', I've sure missed it.

I do know about Susanne's Muzzleloader Builders Supply in Ozone, Arkansas. But that would be MBS, not MLS. Probably not the same place.

Next time I get up north I'll have to see if I can find it.

[FL-Flinter]

"Semi-custom"

It seems there is a difference of opinion on this one... I consider a "semi-custom" a hand-built gun using all high-quality parts but it is not built for one specific person. A "custom" is where the gun is hand-built to the customer's specifications. In other words, if I build a flintlock rifle the way I want and put it up for sale, it's a "semi-custom" - if someone orders a specific gun for them, then it is a "custom" because it's made for that one user. If it's a high-quality "kit" gun, it's still a "kit gun" because it is not completely hand-built even though it may be meticulously assembled with the utmost in craftsmanship - just because it was a kit doesn't mean anything, just truth in advertising.

I differ somewhat from other custom/semi-custom/kit assemblers in that I don't fault anyone from buying what they want - I just try to point out the differences and concerns then let the individual decide what they want to do. That's why I make the statement, based on my years of experience not only building my own guns but after assembling, tuning and repairing a pile of mass-production guns, Lyman is the best in overall consistent quality even if they are not "PC". I happen to have a Lyman Deerstalker I took in trade, not PC by any means but after I tuned the lock and lapped the bore, she's a fine functioning and decent shooting considering the 1:48 twist bore (and is for sale too)

The problem I have is with the el-cheapo's even when the price tag does not reflect the actual quality. This is where people will look at the low price and think they are getting a super deal or where they see a high price and think they are getting a level of quality that reflects the price and then find out that neither thought is correct. There are mass-production guns selling for $600+ and for the lack of any kinder terminology, they're junk. You can't do anything short of trashing the whole thing and starting over from scratch to make them better functioning and in some cases even safe to shoot. In other cases one can spend $650 and buy a half-decent shooting gun that's worth about $300 in actual value. Then there are the scum who knowingly buy dangerous imported crap guns and sell them at ten times what they paid for them to uninformed customers.

I think the customer should be well informed before they do anything - then they can decide if they want to spend, invest or waste their money in whatever way it makes them happy or suits their needs. I have some customers who are pirate reenactors, they have two kinds of guns, el-cheapo's to knocked around and make noise for the public shows and rather expensive custom gun for shooting matches when it's not just for "show".

It's like anything else... you can pay $150,000 for a high-performance good looking Bentley but just you paid $150,000 for a Dodge Colt, don't expect it to be in the same class as the Bentley ... know what you're buying and what you can expect or not expect from it.

[david58]

I have never shot an in-line. Never worn wingtip shoes. Never played golf. Hope to make it to the grave able to say the same.

I am a diehard traditionalist muzzleloader. I have never seen a "production" rifle of the beauty of a custom gun, but I have rarely seen a custom gun as affordable as a store-bought.

I have only pointed friends to the Lyman Hawken, or the old Thompson Center Hawken for production guns - the Dixie Tennessee was nice, but they don't make it now, if I understand correctly.

A Lyman can be had in the $400-500 range. You can't purchase the parts for a custom gun for that, and won't come close to purchasing a Chambers kit for that.

I am a ML snob, I've either got ones I have built or ones built for me, 'cepting one I traded for years ago. There is a definite difference in quality between custom and production, and many of the production guns ARE junk. But I started out shooting a TC Hawken, and will never begrudge someone doing the same. But one has to be careful what one picks, a la CVA.

As to loading, my Thompson shoots with 80gr max of 3F (to remain accurate), my 50 I built eats 120 grains of 3F, my 62 wants 140 grains of either 3F or 2F. But the custom guns have premium barrels made of good American steel, and I am not the least afraid of them. AND, I shoot patched roundball, not bullets, so I don't get close to the bullet mass that some of the bullet folks see. I also get less recoil.

I ramble...I would encourage you to drop the inline idea, forget what ANYBODY says about getting 30-06 energy from a black powder rifle, and enjoy the step back in time with a traditionally built sidelock muzzleloader. And, before you get the inline, if you decide to stay with it, check your hunting regs - here in Oregon the ODFW has restricted the use of inlines for ML seasons, and other states have done the same.

[44capnball]

Hard to add much to this thread that hasn't been said, but I have yet to see or hear from anyone who has witnessed a blowup of a "cheap" ML for anything other than operator error.

I do know of a fellow who saw the drum blow out the side of a caplock. Not sure what make it was. He doesn't remember either.

I think the problem stems from people getting unrealistic expectations. Buying into the notion of flat trajectories and such.

I can launch a 585-grain chunk of lead using 60 grs of FFg, plenty of energy to kill a deer at 100 yards humanely. I don't need to go much over 80 grains of powder for anything I can think of. Come to think of it, in smaller caliber ones with much lighter bullets I can't think of any time I needed more than 80 grs powder.

With the old 60 or 65 gr charge of powder used in the War Between the States, there were marskmen who could hit targets beyond 1000 yards. That ain't sniperinky talkin' either.

1000 yards, and you better believe that 500+ grain conical still had a good head of steam behind it. Not that I'd take that shot at a deer, just sayin'.

I for one will take a production gun any day as long as it's a decent shooter. That might be because I'm a redneck, or it might be because I'm thrifty. Not sure which. Prob'ly both. So far I have gotten time in with 4 production ML's and 1 semi-custom and they were all good, but my favorite is one of the productions, a .58 cal. Second favorite is another production, a Lyman Great Plains.

Undoubtedly there are some lemons to be had in the production class. Doesn't deter me production ML's in general though.

[gmatov]

44,

There were probably, at most, 6 firearms and wielders of them who could hit a MAN at 250 yards, let alone at 1000 yards. POSSIBLY them who shot Whitworth's rifles. Fergusons and Halls, were they used, were rare.

MOST arms in the Civil War were smoothbores. If the barn was large enough and they were inside, they could not hit one of those broad sides of the same barn.
Back to Britain and their smoothbore, when the instructions were to hit a man at 200 yards, aim 50 feet over him and hope it falls somewhere close.

I can cite you the reference to that, if you need it. A smoothbore will NOT hit a target beyond 50 yards, with ANY consistency at all. YMMV, but they will not hit a target at will.

In the 4 years of the Civil War, probably 100 million rounds were fired, cannon and musket, and the death toll was about 660,000. There was no accuracy at ALL involved.

WORSE is that in following wars, the rounds per injury actually increased.

I wonder how many rounds have been shot off in Iraq. BILLIONS? At a buck apiece? Probably. Lots of money to be made in WAR.

Ah, geez.

Cheers,

George

[Hawg]

MOST arms in the Civil War were smoothbores

I dunno where you get your information from but most guns used during the CW were rifled. The two most widely used were U.S. Springfields and British Enfields both capable of making head shots at 500 yds. in the right hands.

Back to Britain and their smoothbore, when the instructions were to hit a man at 200 yards, aim 50 feet over him and hope it falls somewhere close.

I've never heard that before but during the Revolution the Brown Bess didn't even have sights on it.

A smoothbore will NOT hit a target beyond 50 yards, with ANY consistency at all.

Again I dunno where you get your information from but that is total BS.

[CaptainCrossman]

I inherited a Thompson Center 50 cal. Plains Rifle- 1980's vintage. It will handle 90-110 grains of BP safely. I load it with 90 grains, which is the standard load for every ML hunter in this area of Pa.- that I know personally. A quality gun like a T-C will not blow up with 90 grains. It's actually way over-built to handle it.

[FL-Flinter]

Odd six - watch it with the "flatlander" comments! Take note of my screen name FL-Flinter ... as in "Florida" which isn't exactly knows for its mountains.

I can cite you the reference to that, if you need it. A smoothbore will NOT hit a target beyond 50 yards, with ANY consistency at all. YMMV, but they will not hit a target at will.

George,

I'll bet that reference comes from the same self-proclaimed "experts" who still insist on embracing the lies and myths while totally ignoring the truth. That ranks right up there with - "One shot from a blunderbuss will clear the entire deck of a ship." Apply the truth and you'll quickly understand how utterly stupid that sounds yet the "experts" keep saying it. So ask yourself, just how much shot do you need to launch with one shot to cover an area 30-45 feet wide and 70-150 long - roughly 15 POUNDS of #5 birdshot.... man enough to fire that blunderbuss doesn't need any gun to begin with. Second favorite BS lie is, "They loaded anything in a blunderbuss like nails and rocks." Again, total BS still being presented by alleged "experts" who wouldn't know the truth if it jumped up and bit them in the butt. A blunderbuss was just as expensive as any other gun and those shelling out six months to a year's worth of money on a gun are not going to load it with rocks or nails just the same you wouldn't load up your Browning or Merkel with 8D common's or 1B gravel. Truth is that most blunderbuss guns came with one or two gang molds in which small and/or large size shot pellets were cast from cheap lead. At the time, nails were not easily obtained, they were made one at a time by hand by a blacksmith and extremely expensive, ain't no way they're being wasted and there is no way anyone is tearing up their expensive gun putting rocks down the bore. Even back to the days of the early handgonnes, projectiles were primarily cast from lead with the exception of those made from wood specifically to be used as projectiles. See, the truth just doesn't make for as good of a storyline as the BS does.

My PRB's with smokeless in a 12ga cartridge gun smoothbore would hold 5.5" or better groups all day long at 100yds, that was 3" smaller than what my borther was ever able to get with his fully-rifled barrel 12ga MAGNUM using pistol bullets wrapped in a plastic condoms. A smoothbore flintlock rifle will easily hold 6" groups at 75+yds if the gun is right and the operator knows what he/she is doing.

[DrLaw]

Beginning to change the subject here, thankfully, but I will tend to agree with FL-Flinter, since I have seen it done on the History Channel, a smoothbore will hit things at a medium distance. Haven't had a chance to see it in real life yet, but doesn't the NSSA have smoothbore shoots, too? Wouldn't stand to reason that they would if they could not hit anything.

The Doc is out now.

[Cosmoline]

Not to mention the smooth rifles that can outshoot actual rifles. And yes, there is something called a "smooth rifle" in the world of black powder, just as there's something called "semi custom."

Stick with real black powder and you'll have nary a problem. Stay traditional and follow the old rules.