Does one of these two chamberings need to go away?

Unlicensed Dremel · June 9, 2014, 05:31 PM

So is there room enough for .260 Rem AND 6.5 Creedmoor?

Which one should die, if any? Or both should live a long prosperous life?

MDM · June 9, 2014, 06:16 PM

I've been running a Creedmoor for the past couple of years as my main long range comp rifle. In my mind, its a 260 done right. It is more effiecient, ie. less powder for the same velocities. However, the 260 damn sure has a place. Just different strokes for different folks. I also run 6.5x47 Lapua for long range comps. Ballistically, its a wash between the 3, they are all great.

tdoyka · June 9, 2014, 06:34 PM

i've been running the 6.5cm, like he said, its a 260 done right. they both have their place. the real question is should it be the 30-06 or the 308? that would let people have at her.

Mosin-Marauder · June 9, 2014, 06:44 PM

But...I like my .260....

And as for .308 vs .30-06, just go with 7.62x54 Rimmed! Highest kill count of any military cartridge, and the longest serving military cartridge in the world! And it's right in between .308 and .30-06!

Txhillbilly · June 9, 2014, 08:38 PM

I shoot both of them (6.5 CM & 260 Rem),as well as a 6.5-06. As long as there are reloading components available,none of the 6.5mm calibers are going to disappear anytime soon.
They are just too accurate,and perform better than most other calibers at most ranges.

Slamfire · June 9, 2014, 08:41 PM

Heck if I know. I have been asking buds which one to use for a long range rifle and opinions vary. You can make 6.5-08 brass from 308, more people are familiar with the 6.5-08, I guess it depends if you can find Creedmore brass.

Unlicensed Dremel · June 9, 2014, 08:51 PM

I guess the consensus is that there's a place for both - so let it be written; so let it be done.

std7mag · June 9, 2014, 08:53 PM

Ok, here it is....

The 260 Remington(aka 6.5-08 A-Square) is simply the 308 necked down to 6.5 mm.

The Creedmore is the 308 necked down to 6.5mm and shortened 0.10".

This was done so that the higher weight/higher BC bullets would fit in the magazine, and not be pushed back so far into the powder space for the AR platform.

If you have the room in the magazine, and can get the throat cut long, the 260 will hold a couple of grains more powder.

However very seldom is best accuracy achieved at max velocity.

MDM · June 9, 2014, 09:07 PM

Creedmoor also has the 30 degree shoulder going for it. Brass doesnt grow too much in multiple firings. I have a reamer for a 260 that has .079 freebore and its good for running most of the 140s at mag length. Its when you get into the vld and hybrids that the length can be an issue and this is where the creedmoor is a little more forgiving. Still a wash as far as ballistics go.

MarkCO · June 9, 2014, 09:36 PM

In the AR platform, the 6.5CM is a better choice, in a bolt gun, the .260 is a better choice. By my count, there are at least a dozen 6.5 calibers available.

MDM · June 9, 2014, 09:48 PM

What advantage does the 260 have over the creedmoor in a bolt platform? I get that there is the lapua brass option. The lack of good 260 match ammo is something to consider. The hornady match ammo is good stuff. What else? I shoot long range comps every few weeks and i just dont see it.

chipchip · June 9, 2014, 10:24 PM

Who cares!

Geezerbiker · June 10, 2014, 01:26 AM

I'd rather have a .250 Savage the Creedmore was based on. I settled for a .25-06 because of the difficulty finding rifles in .250 Savage.

Tony

MDM · June 10, 2014, 07:03 AM

Either way, any 6.5 cal offers great bullet selection. Take the 140 Berger Hybrid and point them and you have a G1 of .660. That's a pretty badass combo no matter what case is pushing them down range.

FrankenMauser · June 10, 2014, 11:56 AM

Everything has its place.

If you look elsewhere, that becomes more apparent.
Take 'intermediate' .30/.32 caliber cartridges, for example:
.30 WCF (on the "weak" end, but still respectable)
.30 Remington
.303 Savage
7.62x39mm
7.62x45mm
.300 Savage
.30-40 Krag / .303 British
7.5x54mm
.308 Win / .307 Win
7.5x55mm
7.62x54R / 7.62x53R (getting into "high powered" territory)

Every one of the above cartridges has its place in the food chain. In some cases, at certain points in history, circumstances dictated that one cartridge be chosen over another. So, some of them are obsolete or at least extremely unpopular today. But, that doesn't mean that an obsolete cartridge or less popular cartridge need to die, or should have died.

In some cases, such as 7.62x45mm and 7.62x39mm, the fate of a cartridge was determined by nothing more than politics, contrary to the actual performance of the cartridges.
When it came time for Com-Bloc nations to standardize their small arms..... There was more infrastructure already in place for 7.62x39mm, and the developers much more powerful, than the backing of 7.62x45mm. For the intent and purpose of the cartridge, the x45mm was arguably better. But, for the intent and purpose of political gain, guided by the the 800 lb Russian gorilla, the x39mm won the battle. The rest is history...

My brothers shoot .45 Colts.
I shoot .44 Mag.

My brothers shoot .45 Auto.
I shoot 9x19mm.

My brothers' 'big bores' are fairly modern bottleneck cartridges.
My big bores are .444 Marlins.

Different strokes for different folks....

Unlicensed Dremel · June 10, 2014, 01:07 PM

Well said - sounds like you're the black sheep, FM.

I was initially thinking that this was closer to .222 rem mag vs. .223 rem - so close as to be redundant; in that example, the .222 rem mag did die, but the .223 rem lived on - but I guess that's not the case when it comes to 6.5 CM vs. .260 rem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.222_Remington_Magnum

std7mag · June 10, 2014, 04:41 PM

Ahhhhh, but the 222 Rem Mag casing is still alive and used most often...

It's just necked down into what we now know as the 204 Ruger.

Back to the 6.5 thread....

My girlfriend has started going to the range with me more often. She really enjoys shooting my 7mm-08. "There is something satisfying shooting a steel turkey at 200-300 yards, hearing the PANG, and watching it fall over!!!"

She doesn't care for the recoil. Hence I've been looking at a Savage model 10 in the 260 Remington for her.

Unlicensed Dremel · June 11, 2014, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Ahhhhh, but the 222 Rem Mag casing is still alive and used most often...

It's just necked down into what we now know as the 204 Ruger.

Ahhhh, ok - well maybe we need a .257 Creedmoor not a 6.5 creedmoor.

And note that .223 rem (the round most similar to the .222 rem mag) still outsells .222 rem mag and .204 ruger combined, by a factor of many. So, although the .204 is a good round and deservedly here to stay, it's not the same thing at all as the "dead one" (.222 rem mag), being a completely different caliber which hits a sweet spot. But you're right that a lot of the brass is made from the original brass-making tooling for the .222 rem mag.

gyvel · June 11, 2014, 02:37 PM

Quote:

7.62x54 Rimmed! Highest kill count of any military cartridge, and the longest serving military cartridge in the world!

Sorry. The .303 British, which is still in everyday use today in various parts of the world, had been around longer. 1888 was the date of introduction. It's tied with the 8x57 which, in its original form, was introduced with the Model 1888 Commision rifle, and is also in everyday use in some parts of the world.

std7mag · June 11, 2014, 09:25 PM

Dremel,

Well, along with the eventual plans to get her a 260Rem.

I've started my build for a 25 Souper. And am thinking/planning a build on the 6.5 Rem Mag. Would be a heavy barrel...

I wonder how the 350 casing differs from the 7mm Rem Mag???

More research!!!! lol

Creek Henry · June 11, 2014, 10:06 PM

I want a 260AI... That is the 260 done right :)

Unlicensed Dremel · June 11, 2014, 10:20 PM

Hey there's an old HB .25 Souper on gunbroker right now - want me to find it for you?

reynolds357 · June 12, 2014, 09:37 AM

6.5 Creed and .260 Remington. Very similiar. Remington dropped the ball in the marketing department on their version and let it pretty much die a slow death. Hornaday relaunched its ballistic twin, handled the marketing the right way, and has a huge success. We really did not need the Creed, but from a marketing perspective, its almost impossible to revive a dead cartridge. Remington seemed to have no desire to revive it.
There are other similar cartridges in production.
6mm Remington and .243 Winchester.
.220 Swift and .22-250.
All the WSM and RSUAM in respective bore size.
The Whisper and the Blackout.

I guess you could ask "Do we need the Chevrolet 1500 and the F-150?".

Brian Pfleuger · June 12, 2014, 10:21 AM

Not only are there almost countless "ballistic twins" on the market, there is such incredible over-lap between the same almost countless cartridges that any such discussion of whether or not any given one should or will go away is completely pointless.

We could all make a list and come to an eventual, even if grudging, agreement that we could "get by" with no more than 4 or 5 (even if it's 6 or 8) cartridges for hunting of every animal on planet earth. How many hundreds of cartridges are there?

Fact is, there's far more over-lap and "unnecessary" cartridge choices than not, so picking two out of thin air and trying to decide if one of them is too close to the other is really quite like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

std7mag · June 12, 2014, 05:38 PM

I thought it was the Greek debate of how many spirits could dance on the head of a pin.....

Just say'n....

Hmmm, maybe we could neck my 7mm Rem Mag down to 6.5mm.... Blow out some of the body taper, steeper shoulder.

hi...
I'm Ken, and I'm a velocity adict.....

View Poll Results: Which one should die?
.260 Rem	6	9.23%
6.5 Creedmoor	9	13.85%
Neither; they each have a place	50	76.92%
Voters: 65. You may not vote on this poll

June 9, 2014, 05:31 PM	#1
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Does one of these two chamberings need to go away? So is there room enough for .260 Rem AND 6.5 Creedmoor? Which one should die, if any? Or both should live a long prosperous life?

June 9, 2014, 06:44 PM	#4
Mosin-Marauder Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2014 Location: North Carolina Posts: 2,320	But...I like my .260.... And as for .308 vs .30-06, just go with 7.62x54 Rimmed! Highest kill count of any military cartridge, and the longest serving military cartridge in the world! And it's right in between .308 and .30-06! __________________ Proud owner of three (four-ish) pieces of history! K-31, Mosin-Nagant M91/30, M24/47 Mauser, Norinco SKS. "You might as well appeal against a thunderstorm..." William Tecumseh Sherman

June 9, 2014, 08:41 PM	#6
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	Heck if I know. I have been asking buds which one to use for a long range rifle and opinions vary. You can make 6.5-08 brass from 308, more people are familiar with the 6.5-08, I guess it depends if you can find Creedmore brass. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

June 9, 2014, 09:36 PM	#10
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,308	In the AR platform, the 6.5CM is a better choice, in a bolt gun, the .260 is a better choice. By my count, there are at least a dozen 6.5 calibers available. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

June 9, 2014, 06:16 PM	#2
MDM Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 28	I've been running a Creedmoor for the past couple of years as my main long range comp rifle. In my mind, its a 260 done right. It is more effiecient, ie. less powder for the same velocities. However, the 260 damn sure has a place. Just different strokes for different folks. I also run 6.5x47 Lapua for long range comps. Ballistically, its a wash between the 3, they are all great.

June 9, 2014, 06:34 PM	#3
tdoyka Senior Member Join Date: October 3, 2013 Location: windber, pa Posts: 300	i've been running the 6.5cm, like he said, its a 260 done right. they both have their place. the real question is should it be the 30-06 or the 308? that would let people have at her.

June 9, 2014, 08:38 PM	#5
Txhillbilly Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2008 Posts: 512	I shoot both of them (6.5 CM & 260 Rem),as well as a 6.5-06. As long as there are reloading components available,none of the 6.5mm calibers are going to disappear anytime soon. They are just too accurate,and perform better than most other calibers at most ranges.

June 9, 2014, 08:51 PM	#7
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	I guess the consensus is that there's a place for both - so let it be written; so let it be done.

June 9, 2014, 08:53 PM	#8
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Ok, here it is.... The 260 Remington(aka 6.5-08 A-Square) is simply the 308 necked down to 6.5 mm. The Creedmore is the 308 necked down to 6.5mm and shortened 0.10". This was done so that the higher weight/higher BC bullets would fit in the magazine, and not be pushed back so far into the powder space for the AR platform. If you have the room in the magazine, and can get the throat cut long, the 260 will hold a couple of grains more powder. However very seldom is best accuracy achieved at max velocity.

June 9, 2014, 09:07 PM	#9
MDM Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 28	Creedmoor also has the 30 degree shoulder going for it. Brass doesnt grow too much in multiple firings. I have a reamer for a 260 that has .079 freebore and its good for running most of the 140s at mag length. Its when you get into the vld and hybrids that the length can be an issue and this is where the creedmoor is a little more forgiving. Still a wash as far as ballistics go.

June 9, 2014, 09:48 PM	#11
MDM Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 28	What advantage does the 260 have over the creedmoor in a bolt platform? I get that there is the lapua brass option. The lack of good 260 match ammo is something to consider. The hornady match ammo is good stuff. What else? I shoot long range comps every few weeks and i just dont see it.

June 9, 2014, 10:24 PM	#12
chipchip Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 247	Who cares!

June 10, 2014, 01:26 AM	#13
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	I'd rather have a .250 Savage the Creedmore was based on. I settled for a .25-06 because of the difficulty finding rifles in .250 Savage. Tony

June 10, 2014, 07:03 AM	#14
MDM Member Join Date: November 3, 2005 Posts: 28	Either way, any 6.5 cal offers great bullet selection. Take the 140 Berger Hybrid and point them and you have a G1 of .660. That's a pretty badass combo no matter what case is pushing them down range.

June 10, 2014, 11:56 AM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Everything has its place. If you look elsewhere, that becomes more apparent. Take 'intermediate' .30/.32 caliber cartridges, for example: .30 WCF (on the "weak" end, but still respectable) .30 Remington .303 Savage 7.62x39mm 7.62x45mm .300 Savage .30-40 Krag / .303 British 7.5x54mm .308 Win / .307 Win 7.5x55mm 7.62x54R / 7.62x53R (getting into "high powered" territory) Every one of the above cartridges has its place in the food chain. In some cases, at certain points in history, circumstances dictated that one cartridge be chosen over another. So, some of them are obsolete or at least extremely unpopular today. But, that doesn't mean that an obsolete cartridge or less popular cartridge need to die, or should have died. In some cases, such as 7.62x45mm and 7.62x39mm, the fate of a cartridge was determined by nothing more than politics, contrary to the actual performance of the cartridges. When it came time for Com-Bloc nations to standardize their small arms..... There was more infrastructure already in place for 7.62x39mm, and the developers much more powerful, than the backing of 7.62x45mm. For the intent and purpose of the cartridge, the x45mm was arguably better. But, for the intent and purpose of political gain, guided by the the 800 lb Russian gorilla, the x39mm won the battle. The rest is history... My brothers shoot .45 Colts. I shoot .44 Mag. My brothers shoot .45 Auto. I shoot 9x19mm. My brothers' 'big bores' are fairly modern bottleneck cartridges. My big bores are .444 Marlins. Different strokes for different folks.... __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

June 10, 2014, 01:07 PM	#16
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Well said - sounds like you're the black sheep, FM. I was initially thinking that this was closer to .222 rem mag vs. .223 rem - so close as to be redundant; in that example, the .222 rem mag did die, but the .223 rem lived on - but I guess that's not the case when it comes to 6.5 CM vs. .260 rem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.222_Remington_Magnum Last edited by Unlicensed Dremel; June 10, 2014 at 01:12 PM.

June 10, 2014, 04:41 PM	#17
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Ahhhhh, but the 222 Rem Mag casing is still alive and used most often... It's just necked down into what we now know as the 204 Ruger. Back to the 6.5 thread.... My girlfriend has started going to the range with me more often. She really enjoys shooting my 7mm-08. "There is something satisfying shooting a steel turkey at 200-300 yards, hearing the PANG, and watching it fall over!!!" She doesn't care for the recoil. Hence I've been looking at a Savage model 10 in the 260 Remington for her.

June 11, 2014, 09:25 PM	#20
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Dremel, Well, along with the eventual plans to get her a 260Rem. I've started my build for a 25 Souper. And am thinking/planning a build on the 6.5 Rem Mag. Would be a heavy barrel... I wonder how the 350 casing differs from the 7mm Rem Mag??? More research!!!! lol

June 11, 2014, 10:06 PM	#21
Creek Henry Senior Member Join Date: October 23, 2009 Location: Dallas Posts: 514	I want a 260AI... That is the 260 done right :)

June 11, 2014, 10:20 PM	#22
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	Hey there's an old HB .25 Souper on gunbroker right now - want me to find it for you?

June 12, 2014, 09:37 AM	#23
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	6.5 Creed and .260 Remington. Very similiar. Remington dropped the ball in the marketing department on their version and let it pretty much die a slow death. Hornaday relaunched its ballistic twin, handled the marketing the right way, and has a huge success. We really did not need the Creed, but from a marketing perspective, its almost impossible to revive a dead cartridge. Remington seemed to have no desire to revive it. There are other similar cartridges in production. 6mm Remington and .243 Winchester. .220 Swift and .22-250. All the WSM and RSUAM in respective bore size. The Whisper and the Blackout. I guess you could ask "Do we need the Chevrolet 1500 and the F-150?".

June 12, 2014, 10:21 AM	#24
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Not only are there almost countless "ballistic twins" on the market, there is such incredible over-lap between the same almost countless cartridges that any such discussion of whether or not any given one should or will go away is completely pointless. We could all make a list and come to an eventual, even if grudging, agreement that we could "get by" with no more than 4 or 5 (even if it's 6 or 8) cartridges for hunting of every animal on planet earth. How many hundreds of cartridges are there? Fact is, there's far more over-lap and "unnecessary" cartridge choices than not, so picking two out of thin air and trying to decide if one of them is too close to the other is really quite like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 12, 2014, 05:38 PM	#25
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	I thought it was the Greek debate of how many spirits could dance on the head of a pin..... Just say'n.... Hmmm, maybe we could neck my 7mm Rem Mag down to 6.5mm.... Blow out some of the body taper, steeper shoulder. hi... I'm Ken, and I'm a velocity adict.....