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February 15, 2010, 09:01 AM | #26 | |
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http://www.warriortalk.com/showthrea...istol+shooting
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February 15, 2010, 11:21 AM | #27 | ||
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How successful are our current short range training and proficiency programs. Cops tend to his 25-30% of the time and certainly most of their shootings are inside of 25 yards. So if that is all that we are getting out of our officers, on average with the current sorts of programs we have, what is it going to take to make our officers be able to be comparably proficient at 4-8 times the distance? Do we really think the current real world proficiency figures reflect officers getting and maintaining the best sort of instruction to make them good fighters? Based on my experiences with Joe Public in CHL classes, the vast majority of CHL holders don't even carry a gun with them most of the time and few see a range more than once or twice a year, some even less. The vast majority of the public concealed carry folks are going to have trouble beyond 20 yards, maybe less, because they do nothing to maintain their skills. Even amongst people of this forum, there are those who think long range shooting can't be justified legally (which sounds silly, does it not) and/or think long range defensive pistol simply isn't practical. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...e+self+defense It will be a long fight to get folks onboard with the idea of needing to be proficient and maintaining proficiency with a pistol at longer distances. And here I definitely do NOT want to stress bullseye stationary target proficiency, but combat moving target proficiency involving aspects of shooting on the move and shooting from less than ideal positions. Look at all the officers in the North Hollywood bank robbery shooting that were attempting to engage the robbers at 75-150 yards from around corners, from underneath cars, around the bumpers of cars, etc.
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February 15, 2010, 11:40 AM | #28 | ||
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I was merely making a point to a previous poster: if I can hit half-scale targets with a G26 at 75 yds, a full scale at 200 with a service pistol isn't really much more difficult. I can hit farther with my G26 if necessary, and it only took a short time for everyone in the class to be hitting at the 75 yd. distance. It really doesn't require massive amounts of time or money to do. Quote:
Last edited by smince; February 15, 2010 at 11:52 AM. |
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February 15, 2010, 11:27 PM | #29 | |
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What is Sam Hill is wrong with us? Now if you the boat you are in might sink if you don't put the plug in the hole near the transom do you wait for the 'government' to do it? Do you wait for the 'government' to put a fire extinguisher in your car (you do have one of those in it, right?) Do you wait for the 'government' to put a first aid kit in your car (please tell me you do have one of those in it, right?) If the police are too lazy to practice themselves, even after such warnings as North Hollywood and what happened in India, well it's their arse Cochise. Those that are committed do, those that aren’t, don't. Simple as that. As Farnam has said, 'You are on your own.'
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February 16, 2010, 02:13 AM | #30 | ||
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Assuming that would be the average for the department (and it isn't - this would be very low), then you are looking at $147,000. Let's say that the department can make their officers proficient at shooting stationary targets at 200 yards with just on 50 round box of ammo. Let's say that the department is getting the super bulk discount for ordering in large quantities and each box of ammo costs only $5. That adds another $17,500 to the costs making a total of $164,500. Shooting stationary targets, however, probably isn't going to be the shots officers are likely to be getting given scenarios like Mumbai and North Hollywood. So how many more hours is it going to take per officer to be proficient at hitting moving targets at 200 yards with pistols? I would be willing to bet that it would take at least three times as long and three times the amount of ammo to become proficient with moving targets at 200 yards. That adds another $493,500 for a total of $658,000. Maybe you are a small department with just 100 officers. Assuming the same training times and costs, then you are looking at $18,800 Assuming that you get officers up to speed in hitting stationary and moving targets at 200 yards with handguns, what percentage of those officers are going to still be proficient the next time qualifications come around? For every officer who can't do it, more costs will be incurred with retraining. Getting officers competent at slow fire marksmanship is nice, but the problem orientation isn't for slow fire marksmanship. The problem orientation stated was for fighting combatants such as those from Mumbai or North Hollywood. Getting officers to be effective long range pistol combatants and keeping those skills proficient will involve significant costs. Quote:
Look at the track record for getting patrol rifles in squad cars. How many departments have managed to be able to afford getting patrol rifles in every squad car? Contrary to what you might think, costs are a very real hurdle that must be overcome to implement such programs.
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"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange |
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