My SAGA with my M70 Jack O'Connor is over

NavyChief · July 26, 2014, 12:52 AM

I won't go into all of the details on how I ended up at this point, you can look back at previous posts and see the trail. But here is where the trail shall end, for me anyway. The rifle came back after about 8 months for repairs on the stock. The metalwork was fixed very well, the barrel floats perfectly, the finish on the gun is above average and the checkering looks like it was done with a pocketknife by a drunk, in the dark. I've got pictures and I do hope to post them here. If not, I'll post them on the website I open up based on this experience. The tradjedy for me is that I'll never be able to buy another Model 70, Model 94, Super X or any other Winchester/Browning related products without holding them in my hands first. Over the decades I have probably filled at least 3 of my safes via Gunbroker and other online auctions, but not anymore. This experience fixed that for me. If you want a quality gun, you better go find it. Never had any trouble with Weatherby or Kimber rifles online and all the Browning shotguns I have purchased have served me well, but that was then and this is now. I'll take no more chances. The gun doesn't look horrible to the point that you couldn't hunt with it, I just can't. I'll hate it evertime I look at it and think of all the hassle I went through and all the money I spent on something that is of inferior quality to a standard M70 being produced right now (at least I hope it is). Don't think I'll ever shoot it. I'll just hold it till someone buys it, and we all know someone eventually will. The only question is how much will I lose in all of this? Never again!file:///C:/Users/Jim/Desktop/2.jpg

NavyChief · July 26, 2014, 01:03 AM

http://thefiringline.com/forums/atta...1&d=1406354321

eastbank · July 26, 2014, 06:18 AM

i agree,it looks bad. eastbank.

Art Eatman · July 26, 2014, 10:04 AM

"Good help is hard to find."

gk1 · July 26, 2014, 03:26 PM

I've been hoping for an update for a while, as it seemed like it was about time, but this isn't what I'd hoped to hear... I can only imagine your disppointment.

It's a shame that they can try so hard, yet still fail to deliver.

It's still a beautiful rifle though. Think of it like Cindy Crawford's mole

velocette · July 26, 2014, 03:56 PM

Chief;
It may be worthy to go here: http://www.checkering.com/
and talk to Sherry. she claims that she can improve or re-cut poorly done
checkering. Her work photos really look good. She was the head checker'er at Kimber in her past.

AllenJ · July 26, 2014, 06:49 PM

NavyChief, I've followed your story with interest and am sorry to hear the results. It is ashamed that a company like Winchester/Browning can't do a better job to satisfy a customer and it's a story that is going to greatly influence my decision to ever buy their products again in the future. When you are being charged a premium price for a premium rifle you should get what you pay for. Good luck in the future sir.

Art Eatman · July 27, 2014, 08:14 AM

AllenJ, it appears that the real problem stems from a purchase of an item without seeing it, first. Navy Chief's problem came from a section of Winchester wherein they could not perform in a competent manner. I don't see that as a blanket indictment of the entire production.

Maybe it's just me; I've always been a "feel and fondle" sort when it comes to my firearms.

James K · July 27, 2014, 09:35 PM

But isn't hand cut checkering always better?

Jim

AllenJ · July 28, 2014, 07:14 AM

I'm sorry Art but I have to disagree. He bought the rifle sight unseen but then returned it to have repairs made, and they sent that. I do agree that it came from a "section" of Winchester but refuse to support any section of a company that allows that type of quaility at that price to leave its facility, twice no less.

Unlicensed Dremel · July 28, 2014, 11:31 AM

They screwed you to be sure. However, if all of us had a nickel for everytime someone screwed us, we could all retire in luxury. Sorry to hear.

Also, to be fair, the checkering is much better than I can do with a pocket knife in the light - and I don't drink.

HKFan9 · July 28, 2014, 01:51 PM

Maybe it is just me, but I generally don't buy hunting rifles... or any gun really for how it looks, but yours still doesn't look bad at all to me. I have old Sako's and everything else I don't even take out in the woods anymore, for risk of ruining them. If you are a guy who walks 40 yards to and from his stand than sure, but I do not do that. I wouldn't bother being upset over cosmetics if the gun is truly to be hunted with.

I am sorry you are dissatisfied, but I can't really relate. I have expensive rifles too, Kimber rifles as you mentioned. But I hike / hunt, so I bought the Mountain Ascent most recently.

Brotherbadger · July 29, 2014, 12:14 AM

Would it be possible to just put a different stock on it, or does that particular stock have meaning?

eastbank · July 29, 2014, 08:57 AM

if you are paying hard earned dollars for a special rifle,why should you not expect it to be have ex metal and wood? if not why would you want to spend your dollars for it when there are plenty of cheaper rifles for half the money that have wood like that. but thats just me. eastbank.

Art Eatman · July 29, 2014, 10:41 AM

AllenJ, in almost sixteen years of moderating threads, from the early days of TFL on through the years here, it seems as though almost all of the hunting rifle manufacturers have had a few lemons, and customer relation problems.

Not just the "majors", but the special-order/custom/quasi-custom folks as well. As a percentage of all their guns, it's not many--but it has happened.

And will happen.

HKFan9 · July 31, 2014, 07:27 PM

Quote:

if you are paying hard earned dollars for a special rifle,why should you not expect it to be have ex metal and wood? if not why would you want to spend your dollars for it when there are plenty of cheaper rifles for half the money that have wood like that. but thats just me. eastbank.

Well after selling guns and working in custom shops... your statement is somewhat true, however I don't consider a off the shelf modern production M70 to be a high dollar sought after rifle. Sure it is more expensive than others, you can get a Ruger American for $300 that will most likely shoot just as good if not better than it. I understand the sentiment that the guns cost a decent amount of money, but still they are not custom hand built rifles that cost much much more.

I have a gun smith building me a rifle now, with a mannlicher stock, and he asked if I was going to be hunting with it and I said yes, so he talked me out of getting a high grade wood, and I am thankful for it.

reynolds357 · July 31, 2014, 09:37 PM

I custom fabricate items for a living. We use old schol hand processes and we use modern processes. The modern processes produce near perfect, cookie cutter products. The old school method produces variations and imperfections that give the product uniqueness and desirability. The hand processed items and their "personality marks" sell for much higher prices than the near perfection produced by automation. If the desired result is perfection, then the item has no personality or uniqueness.

Geezerbiker · August 1, 2014, 05:22 AM

"It may be worthy to go here: http://www.checkering.com/
and talk to Sherry. she claims that she can improve or re-cut poorly done
checkering. Her work photos really look good. She was the head checker'er at Kimber in her past."

I met her at a gun show in Portland many years ago. She was free hand working on some junk stocks to show what she could do. I was very impressed with the look of her work...

Tony

July 26, 2014, 12:52 AM	#1
NavyChief Member Join Date: January 29, 2014 Location: West Tennessee Posts: 37	My SAGA with my M70 Jack O'Connor is over I won't go into all of the details on how I ended up at this point, you can look back at previous posts and see the trail. But here is where the trail shall end, for me anyway. The rifle came back after about 8 months for repairs on the stock. The metalwork was fixed very well, the barrel floats perfectly, the finish on the gun is above average and the checkering looks like it was done with a pocketknife by a drunk, in the dark. I've got pictures and I do hope to post them here. If not, I'll post them on the website I open up based on this experience. The tradjedy for me is that I'll never be able to buy another Model 70, Model 94, Super X or any other Winchester/Browning related products without holding them in my hands first. Over the decades I have probably filled at least 3 of my safes via Gunbroker and other online auctions, but not anymore. This experience fixed that for me. If you want a quality gun, you better go find it. Never had any trouble with Weatherby or Kimber rifles online and all the Browning shotguns I have purchased have served me well, but that was then and this is now. I'll take no more chances. The gun doesn't look horrible to the point that you couldn't hunt with it, I just can't. I'll hate it evertime I look at it and think of all the hassle I went through and all the money I spent on something that is of inferior quality to a standard M70 being produced right now (at least I hope it is). Don't think I'll ever shoot it. I'll just hold it till someone buys it, and we all know someone eventually will. The only question is how much will I lose in all of this? Never again!file:///C:/Users/Jim/Desktop/2.jpg Last edited by NavyChief; July 26, 2014 at 01:05 AM.

July 26, 2014, 03:56 PM	#6
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	Chief; It may be worthy to go here: http://www.checkering.com/ and talk to Sherry. she claims that she can improve or re-cut poorly done checkering. Her work photos really look good. She was the head checker'er at Kimber in her past. __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

July 29, 2014, 12:14 AM	#13
Brotherbadger Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2010 Posts: 1,149	Would it be possible to just put a different stock on it, or does that particular stock have meaning? __________________ Once Fired Brass, Top quality, Fast shipping, Best prices. http://300AacBrass.com/ -10% Coupon use code " badger "

July 26, 2014, 06:18 AM	#3
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	i agree,it looks bad. eastbank.

July 26, 2014, 10:04 AM	#4
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"Good help is hard to find."

July 26, 2014, 03:26 PM	#5
gk1 Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2002 Posts: 108	I've been hoping for an update for a while, as it seemed like it was about time, but this isn't what I'd hoped to hear... I can only imagine your disppointment. It's a shame that they can try so hard, yet still fail to deliver. It's still a beautiful rifle though. Think of it like Cindy Crawford's mole

July 26, 2014, 06:49 PM	#7
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	NavyChief, I've followed your story with interest and am sorry to hear the results. It is ashamed that a company like Winchester/Browning can't do a better job to satisfy a customer and it's a story that is going to greatly influence my decision to ever buy their products again in the future. When you are being charged a premium price for a premium rifle you should get what you pay for. Good luck in the future sir.

July 27, 2014, 08:14 AM	#8
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	AllenJ, it appears that the real problem stems from a purchase of an item without seeing it, first. Navy Chief's problem came from a section of Winchester wherein they could not perform in a competent manner. I don't see that as a blanket indictment of the entire production. Maybe it's just me; I've always been a "feel and fondle" sort when it comes to my firearms.

July 27, 2014, 09:35 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	But isn't hand cut checkering always better? Jim

July 28, 2014, 07:14 AM	#10
AllenJ Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2009 Location: Northern California Posts: 1,766	I'm sorry Art but I have to disagree. He bought the rifle sight unseen but then returned it to have repairs made, and they sent that. I do agree that it came from a "section" of Winchester but refuse to support any section of a company that allows that type of quaility at that price to leave its facility, twice no less.

July 28, 2014, 11:31 AM	#11
Unlicensed Dremel Junior member Join Date: February 13, 2014 Location: Flathead Valley, MT Posts: 2,187	They screwed you to be sure. However, if all of us had a nickel for everytime someone screwed us, we could all retire in luxury. Sorry to hear. Also, to be fair, the checkering is much better than I can do with a pocket knife in the light - and I don't drink.

July 28, 2014, 01:51 PM	#12
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	Maybe it is just me, but I generally don't buy hunting rifles... or any gun really for how it looks, but yours still doesn't look bad at all to me. I have old Sako's and everything else I don't even take out in the woods anymore, for risk of ruining them. If you are a guy who walks 40 yards to and from his stand than sure, but I do not do that. I wouldn't bother being upset over cosmetics if the gun is truly to be hunted with. I am sorry you are dissatisfied, but I can't really relate. I have expensive rifles too, Kimber rifles as you mentioned. But I hike / hunt, so I bought the Mountain Ascent most recently.

July 29, 2014, 08:57 AM	#14
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,450	if you are paying hard earned dollars for a special rifle,why should you not expect it to be have ex metal and wood? if not why would you want to spend your dollars for it when there are plenty of cheaper rifles for half the money that have wood like that. but thats just me. eastbank.

July 29, 2014, 10:41 AM	#15
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	AllenJ, in almost sixteen years of moderating threads, from the early days of TFL on through the years here, it seems as though almost all of the hunting rifle manufacturers have had a few lemons, and customer relation problems. Not just the "majors", but the special-order/custom/quasi-custom folks as well. As a percentage of all their guns, it's not many--but it has happened. And will happen.

July 31, 2014, 09:37 PM	#17
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	I custom fabricate items for a living. We use old schol hand processes and we use modern processes. The modern processes produce near perfect, cookie cutter products. The old school method produces variations and imperfections that give the product uniqueness and desirability. The hand processed items and their "personality marks" sell for much higher prices than the near perfection produced by automation. If the desired result is perfection, then the item has no personality or uniqueness.

August 1, 2014, 05:22 AM	#18
Geezerbiker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2011 Location: Willamina, OR Posts: 1,908	"It may be worthy to go here: http://www.checkering.com/ and talk to Sherry. she claims that she can improve or re-cut poorly done checkering. Her work photos really look good. She was the head checker'er at Kimber in her past." I met her at a gun show in Portland many years ago. She was free hand working on some junk stocks to show what she could do. I was very impressed with the look of her work... Tony