The Downside of Longer L.O.P.

Gary H · July 7, 2001, 01:45 PM

When I measure Amy by the static method of stock on arm and finger on trigger, I get 11 3/4". I don't own a shotgun with an L.O.P. below 14 3/4", so I can't have her mounting the gun for trial. I've read that many people prefer to shoot a gun with a bit longer L.O.P.. It seems to me that the primary deterrent to a longer than usual stock would be catching your clothing. Modifications to mounting style might take care of that problem. Are there other negatives to a slightly longer L.O.P.?

I ask this question because I can fit the Remington 1100 as short as 12 1/2", but this is slightly longer than desired. Buying the shotgun and modifying it for L.O.P. is an expensive way of finding out that this was a no win situation from the beginning.

Dave McC · July 7, 2001, 02:17 PM

If it works, it's not too long. If it doesn't, it's too long. IMO, one that's too short is a bit easier to deal with than a long one, but....

Standard stocks here run 13 3/4 to 14 1/4". The trap 870 has a total pull of 14 7/8". While this felt a hair awkward at first, I can mount it like a field stock now that I'm used to it. The big difference is my forward hand is further back than before,with the other stocks. That's the best way to deal with stocks of not perfect length, move your front hand to accomodate.

Just measured from the inside of my elbow to the first knuckle on my trigger finger. 'bout 14". Then measured Son, who's 14, small for his age, and has trouble with the 12 1/2" LOP on the Youth Express here.His is about 13". Obviously,other things besides arm length come into play.

A suggestion, give Wenig Gunstocks a call. They have a Lady's Model, a variant on their New American stock, and I think it goes under 12 1/2".
They've a website.

HTH....

johnbt · July 7, 2001, 03:50 PM

My 2 cents worth, based on my experience of being tall for my age as a little kid and having access to mostly adult-sized rifles and shotguns.

I seldom had trouble reaching the trigger, but what I remember the most is that it took a few years until I was strong enough to hold up the barrel reliably without using a fence, stump or car for support.

For me, a stock that's too long means the receiver and the barrel are just that much farther away from me and that much more awkward to manage in terms of leverage and balance.

How many times have we seen someone lining up a shot and leaning back on their rear foot to try and keep from falling over because the gun was too long or heavy? That was me at first: BOOM, stagger back, stumble and have a seat in the dirt. My dad always concentrated on catching the shotgun

I finally got my own shotgun when I could hold on to his Model 12 20ga. after I fired it. FWIW, I didn't get my first 12ga. until I was 14.

John

Gary H · July 7, 2001, 07:17 PM

Dave:

I think that 12 1/2" is the shortest that you will be going with the 1100 in 12 gauge. The recoil spring that sits in the stock will not allow shorter, without serious chest surgery to clear a path for the recoil spring. Perhaps the 20 gauge will allow for shorter L.O.P.

MiniZ · July 7, 2001, 11:14 PM

I tend to agree with the "if it works, its OK, if not, its too long" attitude. As a personal preference, I can make a gun that is too short(not very often, as I am 5'6")work compared to a gun that is too long. As stated previously, you probably can't go below 12 1/2" on an 1100 12 GA(or most semi-autos for that matter) due to the recoil mechanism in the buttstock. I don't know about a 20 gauge however.....

Zane

Gary H · July 10, 2001, 12:51 PM

I just picked up a BB gun for Amy. It has a 12 1/2" LOP and it conforms with the idea of learning to shoot with both eyes open using a BB gun. Amy has already improved 100% with the BB gun and she is having fun with it. The fact that it doesn't go bang and isn't very heavy is a plus. At $5.87 per 6000 BB's and the ability to practice in the backyard, I think this will work just fine for a first step. Next week the Cadet Stock will be here and she will practice her mount.

Erick:

Somehow we were unable to connect. Hope to meet up with you in the near future. Just went over to Richmond and was really impressed with their skeet/trap over water. It was such a beautiful environment.

Gary H · July 15, 2001, 06:24 PM

I thought that I had this thing figured out, but the Outers Cadet Stock for the 1100 didn't give me the 12 1/2" LOP promised, but rather gave me 12 3/4". It is cut pretty close to the recoil spring.

That extra 1/4" has pushed the stock to 1" over what I think Amy really needs and makes it much harder for her to mount than the BB gun with the 12 1/2" stock.

I doubt that any of the better 12 gauge semi-autos will allow for any shorter stocks. Her new Past shooting vest is completely out. It ends up around her head when she mounts the gun. That certainly makes the shot a bit difficult.

Gary H · July 22, 2001, 11:42 AM

Well, Amy has been shooting the 1100 at 12 3/4" with modifications to the pad for fit and she was hitting 19/25 her second time out. The problem is that her mounting of the gun isn't comfortable because of her breasts. I would talk to her about breast reduction, but the rest of the time they seem to be a plus for her. I can't get any further reduction in LOP, so it seems like the 1100 is out and must now sit in my safe.

I'm going to dump the 12 gauge for now and concentrate on the 20 gauge. Amy handled a "Youth" 870 and really liked the feel. Of course, the LOP was long for her and the barrel was a bit short for clays. Purchased an 870 Express with a wood stock and 24" barrel. No problem cutting this guy down and I'll put on the worlds best pad. One of my assumptions all along was that she would be very recoil sensitive. This doesn't seem to be the case, so I think the little 20 will work for her and it should cycle anything. I'm sure Dave must be breaking out a small smile and a mental, "I could have predicted this one".

BTW: She forgot her ears on one shot of the 1100 and the recoil almost knocked her over. With her ears on she never noticed the recoil and isn't sore the next day (she doesn't even use a recoil pad).

Dave McC · July 22, 2001, 04:31 PM

Not quite, Gary. More like, " There's other options, a pump would have no limits on stock length and a 20 makes sense for a person of smaller stature"....

Noise has much to do with FELT recoil. At this point, any tyro I teach may be wearing both muffs and plugs beofre the first shot's fired. This not only protects hearing, but makes it easier to not get intimidated, and lots of shotgun newbies have heard all the stories.

Good luck, and one other thing for your lady friend. Round off the toe of the pad a bit and see if that helps her comfort.

Gary H · July 22, 2001, 09:32 PM

Dave:

I have taken sandpaper to the pad and have even reduced the Lop by removing material from the stock side of the Outer's Cadet recoil pad insert and the surrounding pad support. I had to do all this on the part of the pad that inserts into the synthetic stock because the pad is only about 1/8" thick. Wasn't an easy job, but did make some difference with regards to mounting, but Amy hasn't shot the gun since these modifications. I'm hoping that these mods will bring her down to the target. The LOP is still long. The 20 gauge will be cut to fit. The thing that I'm confused about is that Walmart staff told me that the full size 870 Express 20 gauge has a 24" barrel, but Remington's web site lists 26" as the minimum length. Guess I find out when I pick-up the gun.

July 7, 2001, 01:45 PM	#1
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	The Downside of Longer L.O.P. When I measure Amy by the static method of stock on arm and finger on trigger, I get 11 3/4". I don't own a shotgun with an L.O.P. below 14 3/4", so I can't have her mounting the gun for trial. I've read that many people prefer to shoot a gun with a bit longer L.O.P.. It seems to me that the primary deterrent to a longer than usual stock would be catching your clothing. Modifications to mounting style might take care of that problem. Are there other negatives to a slightly longer L.O.P.? I ask this question because I can fit the Remington 1100 as short as 12 1/2", but this is slightly longer than desired. Buying the shotgun and modifying it for L.O.P. is an expensive way of finding out that this was a no win situation from the beginning.

July 10, 2001, 12:51 PM	#6
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	BB Gun I just picked up a BB gun for Amy. It has a 12 1/2" LOP and it conforms with the idea of learning to shoot with both eyes open using a BB gun. Amy has already improved 100% with the BB gun and she is having fun with it. The fact that it doesn't go bang and isn't very heavy is a plus. At $5.87 per 6000 BB's and the ability to practice in the backyard, I think this will work just fine for a first step. Next week the Cadet Stock will be here and she will practice her mount. Erick: Somehow we were unable to connect. Hope to meet up with you in the near future. Just went over to Richmond and was really impressed with their skeet/trap over water. It was such a beautiful environment. Last edited by Gary H; July 10, 2001 at 10:15 PM.

July 22, 2001, 11:42 AM	#8
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	1100 and 12 3/4 Didn't Work..Purchased 870 Well, Amy has been shooting the 1100 at 12 3/4" with modifications to the pad for fit and she was hitting 19/25 her second time out. The problem is that her mounting of the gun isn't comfortable because of her breasts. I would talk to her about breast reduction, but the rest of the time they seem to be a plus for her. I can't get any further reduction in LOP, so it seems like the 1100 is out and must now sit in my safe. I'm going to dump the 12 gauge for now and concentrate on the 20 gauge. Amy handled a "Youth" 870 and really liked the feel. Of course, the LOP was long for her and the barrel was a bit short for clays. Purchased an 870 Express with a wood stock and 24" barrel. No problem cutting this guy down and I'll put on the worlds best pad. One of my assumptions all along was that she would be very recoil sensitive. This doesn't seem to be the case, so I think the little 20 will work for her and it should cycle anything. I'm sure Dave must be breaking out a small smile and a mental, "I could have predicted this one". BTW: She forgot her ears on one shot of the 1100 and the recoil almost knocked her over. With her ears on she never noticed the recoil and isn't sore the next day (she doesn't even use a recoil pad).

July 7, 2001, 02:17 PM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	If it works, it's not too long. If it doesn't, it's too long. IMO, one that's too short is a bit easier to deal with than a long one, but.... Standard stocks here run 13 3/4 to 14 1/4". The trap 870 has a total pull of 14 7/8". While this felt a hair awkward at first, I can mount it like a field stock now that I'm used to it. The big difference is my forward hand is further back than before,with the other stocks. That's the best way to deal with stocks of not perfect length, move your front hand to accomodate. Just measured from the inside of my elbow to the first knuckle on my trigger finger. 'bout 14". Then measured Son, who's 14, small for his age, and has trouble with the 12 1/2" LOP on the Youth Express here.His is about 13". Obviously,other things besides arm length come into play. A suggestion, give Wenig Gunstocks a call. They have a Lady's Model, a variant on their New American stock, and I think it goes under 12 1/2". They've a website. HTH....

July 7, 2001, 03:50 PM	#3
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	My 2 cents worth, based on my experience of being tall for my age as a little kid and having access to mostly adult-sized rifles and shotguns. I seldom had trouble reaching the trigger, but what I remember the most is that it took a few years until I was strong enough to hold up the barrel reliably without using a fence, stump or car for support. For me, a stock that's too long means the receiver and the barrel are just that much farther away from me and that much more awkward to manage in terms of leverage and balance. How many times have we seen someone lining up a shot and leaning back on their rear foot to try and keep from falling over because the gun was too long or heavy? That was me at first: BOOM, stagger back, stumble and have a seat in the dirt. My dad always concentrated on catching the shotgun I finally got my own shotgun when I could hold on to his Model 12 20ga. after I fired it. FWIW, I didn't get my first 12ga. until I was 14. John

July 7, 2001, 07:17 PM	#4
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Dave: I think that 12 1/2" is the shortest that you will be going with the 1100 in 12 gauge. The recoil spring that sits in the stock will not allow shorter, without serious chest surgery to clear a path for the recoil spring. Perhaps the 20 gauge will allow for shorter L.O.P.

July 7, 2001, 11:14 PM	#5
MiniZ Senior Member Join Date: February 1, 2001 Location: SLC, UT Posts: 517	I tend to agree with the "if it works, its OK, if not, its too long" attitude. As a personal preference, I can make a gun that is too short(not very often, as I am 5'6")work compared to a gun that is too long. As stated previously, you probably can't go below 12 1/2" on an 1100 12 GA(or most semi-autos for that matter) due to the recoil mechanism in the buttstock. I don't know about a 20 gauge however..... Zane

July 15, 2001, 06:24 PM	#7
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	I thought that I had this thing figured out, but the Outers Cadet Stock for the 1100 didn't give me the 12 1/2" LOP promised, but rather gave me 12 3/4". It is cut pretty close to the recoil spring. That extra 1/4" has pushed the stock to 1" over what I think Amy really needs and makes it much harder for her to mount than the BB gun with the 12 1/2" stock. I doubt that any of the better 12 gauge semi-autos will allow for any shorter stocks. Her new Past shooting vest is completely out. It ends up around her head when she mounts the gun. That certainly makes the shot a bit difficult.

July 22, 2001, 04:31 PM	#9
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Not quite, Gary. More like, " There's other options, a pump would have no limits on stock length and a 20 makes sense for a person of smaller stature".... Noise has much to do with FELT recoil. At this point, any tyro I teach may be wearing both muffs and plugs beofre the first shot's fired. This not only protects hearing, but makes it easier to not get intimidated, and lots of shotgun newbies have heard all the stories. Good luck, and one other thing for your lady friend. Round off the toe of the pad a bit and see if that helps her comfort.

July 22, 2001, 09:32 PM	#10
Gary H Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2000 Location: Texas Posts: 2,267	Dave: I have taken sandpaper to the pad and have even reduced the Lop by removing material from the stock side of the Outer's Cadet recoil pad insert and the surrounding pad support. I had to do all this on the part of the pad that inserts into the synthetic stock because the pad is only about 1/8" thick. Wasn't an easy job, but did make some difference with regards to mounting, but Amy hasn't shot the gun since these modifications. I'm hoping that these mods will bring her down to the target. The LOP is still long. The 20 gauge will be cut to fit. The thing that I'm confused about is that Walmart staff told me that the full size 870 Express 20 gauge has a 24" barrel, but Remington's web site lists 26" as the minimum length. Guess I find out when I pick-up the gun.