CCW scenario-- What to do?

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 08:34 PM

I was just browsing some posts about concealed carry and different scenarios when one came to my mind:

Let's say you've just drawn your weapon to defend yourself against another individual who is also armed with a firearm. With weapons pointed at one another, a lone police officer arrives and draws his pistol ordering you both to disarm and get on the ground.

Now you know you're the good guy, cop doesn't, bad guy still intends to do you harm dispite the officer's presence. You're in imminent danger of being killed by the BG if you drop your weapon and go down, BUT at equal risk of being shot by Mr. Officer if you don't. What would you do?

The obvious answer is obey the officer's commands. I'm a completely law abiding citizen but I honestly can't say I'd be compelled to drop my weapon when faced with a man who WANTS TO KILL ME. Share your thoughts guys.

Brian Pfleuger · December 2, 2008, 08:39 PM

I don't see a lot of choices. You can't know what the BG will do, you're not a mind reader. He'd have to be one desperate SOB to shoot you with a cop holding you both at gunpoint. You certainly aren't going to fire your own weapon without getting killed by the officer. If the BG fires he will be killed by the officer.

Follow instructions from the officer. It's your highest percentage chance.

BobR · December 2, 2008, 08:39 PM

I will probably take grief for this statement, but.......

If you have drawn your weapon and still haven't neutralized your threat by the time the police arrive on the scene, maybe you didn't need to draw it.

You may as well place your gun on the ground and comply with all directions. You are probably more at risk of getting shot by the cop than the other player at this point.

bob

csmsss · December 2, 2008, 08:42 PM

Quote:

If you have drawn your weapon and still haven't neutralized your threat by the time the police arrive on the scene, maybe you didn't need to draw it.

Agreed, sort of. If you allow yourself to somehow be drawn into a standoff, then you failed to act decisively enough to terminate the threat immediately.

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 08:46 PM

Guys, this is a hypothetical question, not what did I do wrong here. Assuming the BG WILL shoot you, and Mr. officer just happened to show up as this was happening....

You're drawing in too many variables, I'm was just trying to keep it simple and to the point

Brian Pfleuger · December 2, 2008, 08:49 PM

Hypothetically, I can't think of a way that this scenario could possibly happen.

...but if it did and the BG *WILL* shoot (how could you possibly know?) but if he absolutely will, you still have no choice. Take your chances with the BG or die BECOMING THE BG by shooting first and letting the cop shoot you.

KLRANGL · December 2, 2008, 08:58 PM

If a BG wanted to shoot you that bad, dont you think he woulda shot you anyway, even if you already had your gun pointed at him?
If I was the GG, and suddenly found myself in the position of a "standoff" I'd go for the snot locker and hope for the best. But ideally my rounds should already be flying the moment I saw an immediate threat to my life.
If I was instantly thrown into the said scenario, cop and BG guaranteed to shoot me and all, i would either shoot the BG and drop the gun, hoping the cop would just arrest me, or drop the gun instantly and run my ass off to the nearest piece of cover and hope the BG is a bad shot...

I'd be interested to hear from a real cop on these boards what they would do as the cop in this example...

Recon7 · December 2, 2008, 09:00 PM

shoot the BG drop your gun and surrender to the cops.

Although these "Mexican standoffs" only happen in Hollywood. If you are staring down a barrel you shoot ASAFnP! If you draw on a BG with say... a knife and he pulls a gun you shoot once you can tell he is drawing a weapon. If he already has a gun you cannot afford to pause between the draw and shot, you decided to kill him once you started to draw.

alloy · December 2, 2008, 09:05 PM

i stayed in vegas for 10 months about 2 years ago. from what i saw on the news almost daily...in sin city the cop shoots you both and the entire incident is forgotten within 3 news cycles. at least that was my impression. wild wild west.

drop the gun first and maybe only the other guy gets shot.

Sigma 40 Blaster · December 2, 2008, 09:14 PM

You comply with the officer's demands while not turning your back or making yourself overly vulnerable to the other guy. While you're doing so communicate that "This guy was trying to kill me" to the cop.

It is pretty unlikely but if you shoot the BG you'll almost definitely get shot...or get shot at I suppose.

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 09:22 PM

Good info guys. I wasn't trying to be controversial. Just interested in what you might do in this situation. Of course it would be legally correct to comply with directions given by an LEO, BUT assuming you drew your weapon to defend your life, self preservation may prevail. Also assuming Mr. BG has no reguard for the law, you have no reason to believe Mr. officer will deter him from firing at you

Brian Pfleuger · December 2, 2008, 09:25 PM

Quote:

...BUT assuming you drew your weapon knowing your life was in peril it's a tough call.

There in lies the part that will never happen. If I draw my gun on a BG who also has a gun, or draws after or during my draw, he's already got lead headed his way. Even if Mr. Officer shows up somehow unannounced right at that instant, I don't think my trigger finger can stop that fast. There will be no "mexican stand-off". If BG has a gun and is threatening me and I'm drawing mine, there's going to be lead downrange.

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 09:30 PM

Quote:

There in lies the part that will never happen. If I draw my gun on a BG who also has a gun, or draws after or during my draw, he's already got lead headed his way. Even if Mr. Officer shows up somehow unannounced right at that instant, I don't think my trigger finger can stop that fast. There will be no "mexican stand-off". If BG has a gun and is threatening me and I'm drawing mine, there's going to be lead downrange.

So short answer, you would shoot the BG

Brian Pfleuger · December 2, 2008, 09:34 PM

Quote:

So short answer, you would shoot the BG

Short(ish) answer:

I can't imagine how I (or any one) would not have already shot the BG before the officer shows up. Once the officer gets there, somehow without shots being fired, follow instructions. The idea is ALWAYS to minimize your chance of losses. Not to get in a gunfight or avoid a gunfight or be a hero or whatever else. MINIMIZE LOSSES that the whole point.

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 09:40 PM

I agree with you Peetzakilla. I know how a CCW carry SHOULD respond to an armed BG. Again, I was being completely hypothetical. A POSSIBLE situation, not at all probable. I appreciate your input. You're absolutely right about pulling the trigger as soon as your life is put in immediate danger

Brian Pfleuger · December 2, 2008, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Again, I was being completely hypothetical.

See, it ain't fair to give these simple 2 or 3 sentence scenarios. Now you've got to develop the whole situation... what lead up to this... what are the distances... do you have any cover... where is this taking place... Give us a plot line, some juicy details.

Just kidding.

Quote:

A POSSIBLE situation, not at all probable.

As a footnote, I think we should keep in mind that, for the VAST majority of us, having to ever in our lives draw our weapon "in anger" is itself an exceedingly unlikely scenario.

I do enjoy the discussion though.

KUHIO · December 2, 2008, 09:54 PM

Quote:

As a footnote, I think we should keep in mind that, for the VAST majority of us, having to ever in our lives draw our weapon "in anger" is itself an exceedingly unlikely scenario.

Correct you are. I find it ironic, how unlikely all these situations can be yet, nearly everyone knows and/or ,has a connection to, someone who's been in a self defense scenario be it life threatening or not.

Quote:

I do enjoy the discussion though.

That's the name of the game!

jrothWA · December 3, 2008, 12:10 AM

drop and roll away, from firearm and let the LEO do the shooting.
?

Bauer · December 3, 2008, 12:10 AM

The whole reason I carry a gun is because the police can't arrive in time to protect me. That being said if I pull my gun I intend to use it. This situation must have a >.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of actually happening. Perhaps a cop sees you draw your weapon and draws his who happens to be in plain clothes or something.

armsmaster270 · December 3, 2008, 01:00 AM

Drop & roll is going to be seen by the officer as an aggressive move. Follow directions if a shot has not already been made.

December 2, 2008, 08:34 PM	#1
KUHIO Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 250	CCW scenario-- What to do? I was just browsing some posts about concealed carry and different scenarios when one came to my mind: Let's say you've just drawn your weapon to defend yourself against another individual who is also armed with a firearm. With weapons pointed at one another, a lone police officer arrives and draws his pistol ordering you both to disarm and get on the ground. Now you know you're the good guy, cop doesn't, bad guy still intends to do you harm dispite the officer's presence. You're in imminent danger of being killed by the BG if you drop your weapon and go down, BUT at equal risk of being shot by Mr. Officer if you don't. What would you do? The obvious answer is obey the officer's commands. I'm a completely law abiding citizen but I honestly can't say I'd be compelled to drop my weapon when faced with a man who WANTS TO KILL ME. Share your thoughts guys.

December 2, 2008, 08:39 PM	#2
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	I don't see a lot of choices. You can't know what the BG will do, you're not a mind reader. He'd have to be one desperate SOB to shoot you with a cop holding you both at gunpoint. You certainly aren't going to fire your own weapon without getting killed by the officer. If the BG fires he will be killed by the officer. Follow instructions from the officer. It's your highest percentage chance. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 2, 2008, 08:39 PM	#3
BobR Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 2000 Location: The Dry Side of WA Posts: 561	I will probably take grief for this statement, but....... If you have drawn your weapon and still haven't neutralized your threat by the time the police arrive on the scene, maybe you didn't need to draw it. You may as well place your gun on the ground and comply with all directions. You are probably more at risk of getting shot by the cop than the other player at this point. bob __________________ Sarcasm.....just one more service I offer.

December 2, 2008, 08:49 PM	#6
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Hypothetically, I can't think of a way that this scenario could possibly happen. ...but if it did and the BG WILL shoot (how could you possibly know?) but if he absolutely will, you still have no choice. Take your chances with the BG or die BECOMING THE BG by shooting first and letting the cop shoot you. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

December 2, 2008, 08:58 PM	#7
KLRANGL Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Fredericksburg, VA Posts: 958	If a BG wanted to shoot you that bad, dont you think he woulda shot you anyway, even if you already had your gun pointed at him? If I was the GG, and suddenly found myself in the position of a "standoff" I'd go for the snot locker and hope for the best. But ideally my rounds should already be flying the moment I saw an immediate threat to my life. If I was instantly thrown into the said scenario, cop and BG guaranteed to shoot me and all, i would either shoot the BG and drop the gun, hoping the cop would just arrest me, or drop the gun instantly and run my ass off to the nearest piece of cover and hope the BG is a bad shot... I'd be interested to hear from a real cop on these boards what they would do as the cop in this example... __________________ And it's Killer Angel... as in the book

December 2, 2008, 08:46 PM	#5
KUHIO Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 250	Guys, this is a hypothetical question, not what did I do wrong here. Assuming the BG WILL shoot you, and Mr. officer just happened to show up as this was happening.... You're drawing in too many variables, I'm was just trying to keep it simple and to the point

December 2, 2008, 09:00 PM	#8
Recon7 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2005 Posts: 707	shoot the BG drop your gun and surrender to the cops. Although these "Mexican standoffs" only happen in Hollywood. If you are staring down a barrel you shoot ASAFnP! If you draw on a BG with say... a knife and he pulls a gun you shoot once you can tell he is drawing a weapon. If he already has a gun you cannot afford to pause between the draw and shot, you decided to kill him once you started to draw.

December 2, 2008, 09:14 PM	#10
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	You comply with the officer's demands while not turning your back or making yourself overly vulnerable to the other guy. While you're doing so communicate that "This guy was trying to kill me" to the cop. It is pretty unlikely but if you shoot the BG you'll almost definitely get shot...or get shot at I suppose.

December 2, 2008, 09:22 PM	#11
KUHIO Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 250	Good info guys. I wasn't trying to be controversial. Just interested in what you might do in this situation. Of course it would be legally correct to comply with directions given by an LEO, BUT assuming you drew your weapon to defend your life, self preservation may prevail. Also assuming Mr. BG has no reguard for the law, you have no reason to believe Mr. officer will deter him from firing at you

December 2, 2008, 09:40 PM	#15
KUHIO Senior Member Join Date: October 19, 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 250	I agree with you Peetzakilla. I know how a CCW carry SHOULD respond to an armed BG. Again, I was being completely hypothetical. A POSSIBLE situation, not at all probable. I appreciate your input. You're absolutely right about pulling the trigger as soon as your life is put in immediate danger

December 3, 2008, 12:10 AM	#18
jrothWA Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 2,519	Think best to... drop and roll away, from firearm and let the LEO do the shooting. ?

December 3, 2008, 12:10 AM	#19
Bauer Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Washington State Posts: 195	The whole reason I carry a gun is because the police can't arrive in time to protect me. That being said if I pull my gun I intend to use it. This situation must have a >.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of actually happening. Perhaps a cop sees you draw your weapon and draws his who happens to be in plain clothes or something.

December 3, 2008, 01:00 AM	#20
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	Drop & roll is going to be seen by the officer as an aggressive move. Follow directions if a shot has not already been made. __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.