A Tale of Two Semi Automatic Rifles

[Jim567]

I purchased these two rifles this year.
The Smith and Wesson .223 AR sport for 570.00 and the Saiga 7.62x39 for 460.00
The following is my experience.

[Jim567]

I bolted a 3 power illuminated recticle scope on the AR and got 3 shot 1.5" groups at 100 yards. That was all.

The Saiga was another story.
The stock was way to long and very uncomfortable.
I ordered and installed a Tapco stock , pistol grip and forearm great!
But now I had to become compliant.
Needed all American manufactured mags.
So as to not spend an arm and a leg on Saiga specific mags, I converted to AK mags with the addition of a bullet guide.
To be safe, added an American made gas piston.
Spent an additional 150.00 plus a couple hours labor.
Mags not included on the 150.00. The AR needed some also
Had to purchase a scope mount,40.00.
Bolted on a red dot. Didn't know if I would like it.
I do!
What did I get?
A rifle that bench rested does 6" groups at best.
The stock is very comfortable with the iron sights but uncomfortable using the red dot.
Note, price for scopes for both rifles not included in expenditures.
More to follow.
BTW not a rant. I had fun.

[9x19]

Sounds like a fun journey.

I have two M&P15 Sport model ARs, best bang for my buck.

[JWT]

Sounds like many times you get what you pay for.

[Jim567]

I will have more money in the AK than the Smith AR and the groups will never be anywhere near --
I will try some American manufactured ammo to see what I can get.
But --- it's fun even though I would never tolerate groups like that from any of my other rifles.
The AK ( Saiga ) has some fun factor.
At 50 yards its 2" --
The only rifle I have ever owned that inaccurate has been a 1980's Mini 14 .223

[Fishbed77]

The Saiga was another story.
The stock was way to long and very uncomfortable.
I ordered and installed a Tapco stock , pistol grip and forearm great!
But now I had to become compliant.
Needed all American manufactured mags.
So as to not spend an arm and a leg on Saiga specific mags, I converted to AK mags with the addition of a bullet guide.
To be safe, added an American made gas piston.
Spent an additional 150.00 plus a couple hours labor.
Mags not included on the 150.00. The AR needed some also

A much better and likely less-expensive alternative would have been to do a proper pistol grip conversion to bring the Saiga back to proper AK configuration (kits from CSS are only ~$150). This would have fixed the ergonomic issues, improved the trigger vastly, and would also allow you to use inexpensive and higher-quality surplus mags.

[Jim567]

The trigger is good. Note I did the AK mag conversion, that only cost 20.00
I didn't move the trigger forward however because one reason I bought the Saiga, should a bad time come --
It could be converted back to a "hunting rifle". I shortened the original stock and will keep it.
The "ergonomics" are only uncomfortable with a scope. With original iron sights its very comfortable.
Happy with everything cept the group.

[Jim243]

My question would be what is the diameter of the barrel for the 7.62x39?? (.310, .311 or .312) Using different ammo might make a difference in your groups.

At the very least, I would add a muzzle brake to the gun.

Jim

[Jim567]

Looking for good suggestions, I may go with a muzzle brake.
Have only tried TulAmmo 122 gr. HP.
Not impressed
Jim, do you have a suggestion for a muzzle brake?
I do not mind tapping the barrel.

[Jim567]

seems to be a lot of debate on muzzle brakes and accuracy ---

[seanc]

That's like buying a Corvette and a Miata and complaining the Miata isn't as quick as the Vette. Everyone already knows that, but they're both still good cars.

Tula is not known for accuracy. Golden Tiger is accurate, but GT isn't on shelves right now and with Obama's import ban, GT won't be stocked in the future (there's a rumor that there's a shipment already on the way, but that would likely be the last of it imported). I've had good luck with Brown Bear, though not as tight as GT.

If you really want to see how accurate your Saiga is, you could put a scope on it instead of a red dot. Given that you've already shot down the idea of a full conversion (thus, the option of putting a much better trigger on there), the purpose of this rifle for you isn't to be a tack driver. Even still, I bet you could shoot a whole mags worth on your Saiga and still have about a 6" group. I wonder if you shot more than 3 rounds with your AR if you'd still have a 1.5" group. When I shoot, I don't count a group until at least 5 rounds. You shot the cheapest, dirtiest ammo available in 7.62x39 and you're comparing that to what on the AR? Admittedly, AKs are generally 4 MOA guns. And a lot of fun. Sounds like you got the fun part down. That's cool .

[Jim567]

I put the red dot on because I knew going in,the rifle - in my hands wouldn't really benefit from a scope that much. It was the same with my 80's Mini 14.
Scope did NOT help it
I believe ammo is going to be only answer.
I am used to heavy milsurp triggers - this one is not bad.
This weapon will be the red haired step child of my collection-
But one of the most fun

[Fishbed77]

I didn't move the trigger forward however because one reason I bought the Saiga, should a bad time come --
It could be converted back to a "hunting rifle".

Should "a bad time come" I won't need a hunting rifle.

[Jim567]

The bad times I speak of have already come to several states

[Jim567]

I have two M&P15 Sport model ARs, best bang for my buck.

-–------------------
I see a lot of these at the range, evey owner I talked to is happy with them.

[Mobuck]

I wouldn't spend much on a rifle that gives 6" groups regardless of the "cool factor".

[tahunua001]

my experience with the AK is very similar to your own. I spent a great deal of time trying to get it comfortable to shoot and work out optics, in the end, I never got the ergos fixed and it never did any better than 6 inches either. I had close to $1000 into it and several hundred rounds through it before I finally gave up and sold it. my ARs are a very different story but to be perfectly fair, none of my ARs have less than $1000 into them(including optics). for some people, the AK just doesn't work. not to turn this into an AK bashfest or murica vs commie thread. my SKS is the exact oposite, I have $400 into it and it'll outshoot some ARs with tula no less.

try wolf ammo or sellier and bellot, you might get some smaller groups from that.

[Jim567]

Yep!
At this point it's fun to tinker with
I always wanted one kind of thing.
Something to keep the grey matter stimulated.
A personal learning experience.
But in the end, an inaccurate weapon will bore me.
I don't have a shot gun it could fill that void.
How's that for random thoughts lol

[Jim567]

If I can get the groups down to 4" I will be Ok with it.
I knew what was what going in.

[highpower3006]

The first thing to try is changing the ammo. While AK's are not known for being tackdrivers, they will almost always do better than 6" at 100 yards. My first impression is that the scope mount may not be ridged enough to be holding a proper zero. If you have ever seen a slow motion video of a AK firing, you will see that not only does the barrel whip around like mad, but the entire rifle does too.

One thing to consider also is that the Saiga is made to military tolerances (barrel diameter, chamber size, headspace), while most civilian AR's are made to much tighter specs.

The average military AR is only required to shoot to around 4 MOA which is more than adequate for combat. Most Saigas I have seen will do about the same.

[tahunua001]

that may be all they are required to get but that is hardly what most of them are capable of. off sandbags with standard issue ammo I've never seen one that can't shoot 2.5 MOA or better.

[Jim567]

Next time out I will try the iron sights and also better grade ammo. I will have pictures.

[Jim567]

Each Saiga comes with a certificate.
Just found mine.
The factory logged a (107mm) 4.2", 4 shot group with iron sights at 100 meters. Don't know what ammo they used.
First I will try the TulAmmo I have been using,iron sights only to see if it's the mount.
Then I will get better ammo - try iron sights, the red dot, then a 4 power scope.
Fun project.
I will have pictures

Please note I have been fooling around with MILSURP rifles like this (not AKs or ARs) for along time. In the past, when I doubted, I would get an experienced range master to shoot for group to confirm mine. It was always confirmed.

[Darker Loaf]

RE Jim567: Good work on your guns! I love project guns. There's nothing like building a gun up to what you want it to be. I am possessed by this sickness, and virtually every gun I own has been altered in some way to my liking.

RE muzzle breaks: muzzle breaks at their best do not interfere with accuracy or cause it. It is theoretically possible that a muzzle break could by virtue of weight, alter the barrel harmonics positively or negatively, but your average muzzle break, good or bad, will probably not significantly do either.

What a muzzle break does do is make your gun louder, and at best, redirect the gasses either to force your gun downwards if you are experiencing muzzle rise, or push your gun forward to reduce felt recoil. From what I've experienced and read, the most efficient muzzle breaks are going to push your gun forward. These types of muzzle breaks always will make your gun louder and more irritating to stand next to, as the gasses and sound spray away from the end of the muzzle, usually off to the sides--think it will annoy people shooting next to you.

This being said: I like them. If you don't care about muzzle flash or noise, then they can benefit the shooter in terms of reducing felt recoil and reducing the time it take to get the gun back on target. NOTE: muzzle breaks NEVER reduce flash. Only a good flash hider will do this. Hybrids don't seem to do flash reduction well at all, and can often be good muzzle breaks, too.

What muzzle break should you put on your gun? I'd say you should go with a classic AK-74 style break. It would match your gun, they are easy on and off, and I've found mine to be very good at reducing felt recoil. Good luck! There are many good options out there, and if you want a longer list, I can produce one.

[Unlicensed Dremel]

Yup, there's a REASON why the AR15 (& AR10) has immense popularity.

If you really need the "shoot while full of mud" reliability of the AK, then get a Robinson XCR - it's an AK with AR ergos (and adjustable gas). Unless you can't afford the XCR; then get an AK. 98.6% of people don't need *that* level of reliability, when the AR offers *excellent* reliability.

For me, AK types are too heavy and have very crappy triggers (and are usually hard and heavy to scope). Less aesthetics too but that's subjective.