War Surgery Experiences

[DasGuy]

I personally (as someone that was an EMT) would not render aid to someone I had to shoot. I might throw them a towel or something; but that's about it. What's to stop them from pulling a gun or knife or even grab your gun when you drop your gaurd and get close?

The police are going to go in first and make sure the scene is safe for the medics.

[BlueTrain]

Harder to follow than I thought, apparently.

[SPEMack618]

I've always been taught, and witnessed first hand, that one of the biggest things that seperated American military personnel from our enemies is that after the fight is over, we will work feverishly to save a wounded enemy combatant.

I would like to think that if I were ever invovled in a defensive shooting that I would adhear to the same code.

[jimbob86]

I personally (as someone that was an EMT) would not render aid to someone I had to shoot. I might throw them a towel or something; but that's about it. What's to stop them from pulling a gun or knife or even grab your gun when you drop your gaurd and get close?

The police are going to go in first and make sure the scene is safe for the medics.

Thing is, I am the EMT on scene.... after I determine that the scene is safe:

if I was pretty sure the threat was ended (disarmed and incapacitated),

I then have a Duty to Act, if it's in my district..... If he's still capable of hurting me, then of course the scene is not safe..... but if he's laying in my livingroom with a sucking chest wound, struggling to breathe, bleeding profusely, and I have his weapon, I can't very well just stand there and watch him expire.

[markj]

but they are no longer a threat to you. What would you do? Would you holster your weapon and give them aid

I would try my best to save their life. We are VFD too, wife is a resp therapist and EMS. I have first aid and cpr. We value life and it would take a lot to get one of us to shoot someone. Some folks just will not listen to reason and shooting them is a nessasary thing.

We both shoot, she is taking her carry class this weekend. Daughter of mine is a RN out in Nebraska now too. Mom is a scrub nurse, sisters both nurses.

Daughter wanted to be a vet, then her horse got a bad neck injury, she went into the RN, told me it hurt her too much to see an animal hurt like that, people not so much

[ltc444]

if ever I am in need of first aid for a gunshot wound, I want a SF independent Medical Operative (I don't Know if they still call then that) or a Marine Navy Corpsman working on me. They know what they are doing and will not give up. Thank you for serving Doc.

[briandg]

There isn't a chance in the hot place that I would render aid to a person I just shot.

When confronted with a situation, I will give that person every opportunity to stay alive. When force is the only option, I will lay fire on that guy until there is no sign of resistance. At that point, in my philosophy, the person I shot is just going to have to hope that I missed the vitals, and that he's luckier than I am.

I wasn't given a choice about whether or not to shoot him, and I'm not going to interfere with whatever fate has in store for him.

I'm going to back the heck away, avoid his probably infected blood and tissue samples, not put myself within spitting distance, take care of my family, and protect myself.

For the people who would find it revolting that I would coldly allow a human being to die, I have nothing to say. Yep, let him die. Everyone dies. People always make choices that lead to their death. his decision was as stupid as windsurfing in a hurricane, and even being stupid and a criminal will not deter others from trying to save his life.

If it is in your nature to defend everyone from death, just like the people who protested when ted bundy was executed, that is admirable. At this point, I don't put that much value on the life of any random human being, and evil people are at the bottom of my list. I wouldn't donate an ounce of marrow to save my own brother's life. I wouldn't cross the street to save the guy who wrote the virus I got last year.

But, I'd give my own life to save the minister of my church.

[jmr40]

On a similar note this is one of the most amazing stories of survival I'm aware of.

http://www.psywarrior.com/benavidez.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Benavidez

Roy Benavidez was involved in a battle in Vietnam and received a total of 37 separate wounds including 7 gunshot wounds, one through the right lung, as well as shrapnel wounds and bayonete stabbings. He made it to an evacuation helicopter that was shot down and he survived the crash.

Six hours after the first wounds he arrived at a hospital with his intestines outside his body and his eyes caked closed from dried blood. A doctor declared him dead, but before he could zip the body bag closed Benavidez spit in his face to let him know he was still alive.

He didn't receive his MOH until many years later. When Ronald Reagan presented the medal he told the audience that if someone were to ever make a movie about about what he did, no one would believe it actually happened.

I honestly believe that some folks just have the mental attitude that they are not going to give up and die. This accounts for some surviving wounds that easily kill others.

[briandg]

I read about benavidez when the war was still on. IIRC, he was engaging in rescue when he took a lot of those hits. That man deserved our unending awe.

[sabo954]

Our deployments got cancelled because of Hurricane Katrina, but during the early part of the war when I was in clinicals, we were getting patients en route from Ramstein to MTFs in Texas. I remember being 19 and looking down at the paperwork from my first patient that had been wounded in the AOR... That's when I "grew up". He was a soldier shot in the back with 7.62x39mm, he had taken off his armor to get into a tight space while repairing a humvee damaged in the field. The bullet remained intact after striking one of his ribs proximal to his spine, and had shattered the bone fragments into his left lung. The bullet stopped there, but flipped into a vertical position. They had removed the lower two lobes of that lung in emergency surgery. My X-Ray demonstrated no change in the bullet position on the trip over, or any worsening of the remaining lobe, the bullet was still dangerously close to his spine and would need delicate neurosurgery. Thank God he was doped up to his eyeballs and sedated. And then I looked at his DOB: he was 3 or 4 months younger than me...

[Double Naught Spy]

I've always been taught, and witnessed first hand, that one of the biggest things that seperated American military personnel from our enemies is that after the fight is over, we will work feverishly to save a wounded enemy combatant.

I would like to think that if I were ever invovled in a defensive shooting that I would adhear to the same code.

LOL, I have always thought the US military stupid for such acts because they have cost additional US lives.

Aid to my attacker will come when the good folks at 911 send help. I see no reason in exposing myself to a biohazard risk that potentially could do me harm.

[briandg]

I guess that one of the primary reasons I feel that way is that I genuinely believe that psychopathic criminals have no business being loose in society. the only absolute way to keep them out of society is killing them. Getting killed in a gunfight with a potential victim or LEO is the natural course of a violent criminal's life.

I have a lot of contradictory thoughts and feeliings about lethal force, but that's not a sign of hypocrisy, that is proof that I take it seriously. With all of the myriad moral, ethical, religious, personal, and emotional issues involved, somewhere, you have to draw a line and make that personal decision.

I set aside a lot of things, and the fact that I loathe people who exploit and hurt others is the primary criteria for my decision to leave that punk where he lays. If nobody ever shows up, I'm gonna eventually leave him for the flies and go home and have dinner.

Of course others among you make different decisions. I respect you for being a more charitable man than I am. Someday, you may reach my state of cynicism, but I truly hope not.

[SPEMack618]

Comment removed

[SPEMack618]

You render aid to the enemy because, aside from the various laws and conventions of war, it is the right thing to do.


American soldiers render aid to thier enemies, it's what seperates us from everybody else, especially our enemies.

And I believe, and so did General Petraeus, that when you render aid to a fallen Taliban fighter, you are showing why we are different than the Russians or the English, and therefor contributing greatly to the eventual succes in Afghanistan.

War is horrible, and should be ended by the most violent means possible, how some evr, that doesn't mean it has to destroy your soul.

[Merad]

Your life is in danger and you choose to pull the trigger. Now the threat is neutralized....but now lying on the ground bleeding all over and still alive. You are looking this person in the face and they may be talking to you begging for help or mercy, but they are no longer a threat to you. What would you do? Would you holster your weapon and give them aid, put pressure on the wound or wrap a tourniquet on them? Would you double tap them and kill a non-combatant? Would you keep your muzzle on them and call the police and let them save their life?

Best not to do the bolded part if you value your freedom... if they're incapacitated or no longer a threat and you execute them you're going to be strung up on murder charges in most places...

As far as the rest... gotta check your local laws. I have a feeling this is a huge grey area in most places. I'm not so sure you'd be covered by Good Samaritan laws since you caused the injuries. In googling trying to find some answers I did find that Minnesota at least requires you to give "reasonable assistance," however you interpret that.

A person who discharges a firearm and knows or should know that the discharge has caused bodily harm to another person must immediately investigate the extent of the injuries and render immediate reasonable assistance to the injured person. A person who violates this duty is subject to criminal penalties that vary according to the extent of the shooting victim’s injuries. A person who witnesses a shooting incident is subject to the same duty to investigate and render aid and is also subject to criminal penalties for failing to do so. Minn. Stat. § 609.662

IMO legally and morally you're probably better off helping if at all possible, even if it isn't required. If the DA decides to charge you, sitting there and watching while the BG bleeds out isn't going to help your case.

[markj]

You render aid to the enemy because, aside from the various laws and conventions of war, it is the right thing to do.

+1 there. After WW2 the pres got 2 trillion for the re building of Eastern Europe, we also helped re build Japan. A war we didnt even wish to be a part of.

My Uncle was wounded in Nam, he had many scars, was all shot up, same as my God Father. Glad they had great medical help or they would not have made it.

Would I double tap? No, I have no desire to kill someone, and if I ever had to shoot someone I would hope they would not die. It would be better to help a person than to kill a person.

My cousin is a cop here or was he retired. Never pulled his gun in duty, he did however talk a few guys out of their gun. Ask any cop in Omaha, they know his name. He is very well respected, uses his head not his brawn.

[Double Naught Spy]

American soldiers render aid to thier enemies, it's what seperates us from everybody else, especially our enemies.

mmkay.

And I believe, and so did General Petraeus, that when you render aid to a fallen Taliban fighter, you are showing why we are different than the Russians or the English, and therefor contributing greatly to the eventual succes in Afghanistan.

I don't think your message is getting through. The atrocities committed seem to outshine providing medical aid.

[DasGuy]

Fighting a war and defending your life from an attacker as a civilian are two completely different things.

[OEF-Vet]

A bit off topic but they call us combat vets heroes. I don't feel like a hero but combat medics and surgeons are then a heroes' heroes, superheroes if you will. I've seen medics run into a fight without a regard for their own safety to aid a downed warrior. Without the surgeons I would have a few less buddies for sure.

Thanks for the work you folks do and Godspeed.

[Nnobby45]

So my point is, a bullet hurts no matter the caliber, and when people get caught up on calibers and forget that even a .22 to the chest center mass can kill, then you might be developing a false sense of confidence that your caliber big iron will absolutely drop someone when you pull the trigger

I like your post and agree with most of it, but I don't think anybody believes that a .22 to the chest can't kill, and no one I know chooses a SD weapon just because, under the right circumstances, it MAY do so.

If Bubba dies a day later, one hour, or one minute after he's shot me, after I shot him first, then that's little consolation. I'm not concerned so much with whether he dies---more so that he's stopped from hurting me.

Choosing a caliber/bullet combination that has been shown to work consistently well on the street doesn't give me a false sense of confidence, since, as you mentioned, nothing is a sure thing. And the best weapon/ammo doesn't give me a false sense of confidence. Just lot more.

Yes, I have to do my part--we all do. There are no Talismans.

[TheRoadWarrior]

"eventual succes in Afghanistan"

SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

[SPEMack618]

OEF-Vet- I'll echo you 100%.

TheRoadWarrior- I can understand that, I ceertainly can, but I just look back on what I did there, what my guys did there, whay my friends did there, and think it was all for naught.

[Nnobby45]

I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

You sit in the same place as many in your profession before you. What you experience in an emergency medical environment takes place whether your side is winning or not--including your fatalistic out take on things.

[PH/CIB]

Combat Medics going into firefights not to take lives but to save lives knowing full well that the enemy will be trying to kill them and the Soldier on the ground they are trying to save. Doctors and Nurses where the Soldiers are Medivaced to, all day every day for their Tour of Duty working in blood and gore on Men in agony and horrible pain, some they will save and give them joy and hope, some will die…As an ex Combat Soldier I do not know if I could take that every day, Thank God there are Brave Men and Women in the Medical Field who can.

As far as the Mission goes, you have no idea of how Proud we are of all of you and how Thankful we are to all of you. Winning the Hearts and Minds is tough when you invade a country like Viet Nam or Iraq or Afghanistan, totally different people and culture, expected to welcome us with open arms and accept our culture while the enemy is of their own people and is willing to kill them if they do not support them. Yet we did win Hearts and Minds in Nam and I am sure in Iraq and Afghanistan, I knew when we pulled out American Air Support and Artillery that it was just a matter of time in Nam before the government fell. It broke my heart in 1975 when Saigon fell and I saw thousands of Vietnamese trying to get through the gate and fence at the US Embassy and on the helicopters. And then the Boat People from Viet Nam and the treatment of the Vietnamese and Laotians and Cambodians we had left behind. Over 58000 Men gone, the real Heroes who never came home, if they could only have seen the fall of the Berlin Wall, the freedom of the former countries of the Soviet Union, the basic fall of Communism, our trade with China, sure we have problems in the US today, but those Men did not die in vain!

Our Men and Women in Uniform are our Finest Citizens and our most Idealistic Citizens of all,,,Soldiers fight for the most Noble of reasons and causes, unlike our Politicians and those who profit from wars…

Our most important job as Citizens of this Country is to be forever vigilant about our own government and their reasons for wanting war,,,to fail is to let down our Country’s most important asset, our Soldiers.

ROADWARRIOR,,,OEFVET,,,SPEMACK618 and all of our Veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan, no matter what happens to those countries in the future, You went with the most Noble and Idealistic of Causes, America’s Security, and Freedom and a Better Life for the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, YOU ARE ALL HEROES! Just like in Nam you never failed us, our Soldiers never do, I wish I could say the same for our Politicians and We the People back Home.

[BGutzman]

SPEMack 618. Counter-Insurgency is a touchy subject for me. You are much more optimistic than I am. I see no victory, glory or success in any of this.
I mop up the blood. The smell in my hospital is like a slaughterhouse, blood taste in your mouth, gritty feel of sweat and dirt on your skin. From where I'm sitting there is no success possible, everyone is a loser in these conflicts.

We fight for our country, yes and we also fight for the man or woman next to us... Victory isnt always winning the war but sometimes its just making sure you and your team make it back to whatever FOB at the end of the mission.

We dont go back for our dead because of some stuip law or rule... we go back becuase they are our brothers and sisters in arms and as much as we may or may not like the person who went down they are one of us...
Some people like to think there are no winners but the truth be told you can either fight the fight over there or over here... Yes, were not going to change a society that still lives like its the 2nd Century BC but what we are accomplishing it the firm impressing that messing with our nation has severe consequences and unlike much of the rest of the world we can and will kick someones butt for messing with our nation....we can never win like WWI or WWII with all the rules the politicans make us fight with and politically castrated generals dont override and only add more too... but were still no joke as a military..