Retaliation for SD

[The Biker]

True enough, it's a personal choice and I make no judgements. I made my choice long ago. Sometimes, you just have to make a stand. There are worse things than getting dead, the way I see it.
Some things gnaw on a man worse than others...

Biker

[Digital Falcon]

Springmom, it is sad to hear the story of what happened to your son. I hope you and yours are left alone by these punks.

I had not considered the possibility of forceful retaliation for an act of self defense. I guess I slipped into “sheep mode” on the subject. While I do not think it will stop me from continuing to carry I will certainly be thinking on this topic for a while.

I don’t want to have to start thinking in the terms of a criminal mind, but I cannot ignore the fact that by virtue of their being criminals they do think differently than I do. there is much food for thought in this topic.

[springmom]

I had not considered the possibility of forceful retaliation for an act of self defense. I guess I slipped into “sheep mode” on the subject. While I do not think it will stop me from continuing to carry I will certainly be thinking on this topic for a while.

Golly, I'd hope not. Seems to me that the possibility of violence against one's person is a reason TO carry, not to avoid it!

Springmom

[cpaspr]

was that if we have to resort to self-defense, we need to actually UP our awareness and diligence thereafter, due to the possibility of retaliation from the criminal element.

Being situationally aware just in the general course of living our lives should be our normal state of being. Once involved in a S/D shooting, general situational awareness may not be enough.

[Digital Falcon]

Oh I am most certainly going to continue to carry everywhere and anytime I am permitted to. I just hadn’t even had the thought of retaliation enter into the realm of my existence. It is a new dimension that must be added to the equation. I know it sounds pretty dumb to say that I carry and have tried to think of many of the consequences of that action, and I hadn’t even thought of retaliation but I hadn’t.

My first thought would be that it would be flat stupid to retaliate against a person for defending themselves; you would be the very first suspect on the short list. Then it dawned on me if they were smart they wouldn’t be attacking another person. The jail in this county holds 1500 people and it is never less than ¾ full, so I guess there is no shortage of stupid people.

Would I move? Well I have lived in this house for twenty years; it was my father’s house for ten years before that. It would be a true shame that I left my home because I chose to live. I am not saying it wouldn’t happen, but it has to be one damn credible threat to make it happen.

[ceetee]

Remember that questionable SD shoot here in West Palm Beach, FL? The deceased's fellow gang brethren came back later and set his house on fire. Unfortunately, retaliation is a real threat, and it's a battle you can't fight at a time and place of your choosing. I'd rather be alive than not defend myself (or my loved ones, for that matter), and I'd rather be safe in a new neighborhood than have them at risk at my old one. A house is just a house. Family is forever.

[Hallucinator]

This is a disturbing prospect; however, if I were afraid for my life, or that of my wife, I'd shoot and ask questions later. If it meant moving away or sleeping permanently with my Mossberg, that would have to be all right. The gang thing is really scary, and until law enforcement starts dealing with gangs in a forceful and organized manner, they will be a problem. I would think that Homeland Security would be interested in gangs because, well, they're terrorists. They keep neighborhoods in a constant state of terror through violence and threats of violence. In fact, some of the goons in MS 13 have military training. HS should spend their time trying to eradicate gangs and stop harassing law abiding citizens.

[gb_in_ga]

I consider the threat of retaliation for a SD shooting to be very real and very credible.

What worries me most with regards to that is the possibility of my SD firearm being impounded for whatever amount of time for forensics reasons and having the retaliation attack occurring during the period of the impound. It seems to me that is a VERY good reason to have more than 1 SD firearm -- so that you can protect yourself from a retaliation attack while the authorities are sitting on your "primary".

[tronman]

Years and years ago while I was serving and stationed in a not so nice place in California, my first wife and I had gotten a small house reasonably close to the base. I got a call from her one night while I was on duty that there was someone trying to steal her car, she already had the PD on the way, so I called a reflief and got the hell to the house. Before either I or the cop arrived on scene they had decided they couldn't steal the car(I had a switch wired in to disable the ignition) and had tried to break into the house through a side window. My wife had the one gun I kept in the house for SD and announced to the perps she was armed and they fled, but not before she was able to ID two of them as local gang punks who hung around the neighborhood. I and the cops arrived at about the same time and of course we pressed the issue and had the two who could be identified picked up, the PD actually brought them by and asked her to identify them! Well needless to say, within a day or so we started getting obscene notes on the cars, and threats from others in the neighborhood. One of the kids uncles lived a few houses down and came to tell me one evening that he had heard them planning on doing a driveby on my house. I called the PD again and of course they said they couldn't do anything if nothing had happened, moving was not an option, so I went to the base and retrieved the rest of my gun collection from the armory and dropped my wife off at some friends who lived in base housing. The punks uncle came by again as I was sitting on the couch cleaning guns and his eyes went wide when he saw what I had laid out on the coffee table. I simply told him that if they wanted to start a war they had better be prepared to play all day, because I planned on shooting back. Fortunately within a couple of weeks a house came available on base and we moved, but it was a pretty tense couple of weeks for me and I always expected someone to take a shot at me. Maybe I got lucky.

[JohnKSa]

...within a day or so we started getting obscene notes on the cars, and threats from others in the neighborhood.

It's worth repeating this quote.

We tend to think of the big things. Avoiding jail, avoiding or winning civil suits, keeping an eye open for someone with a gun trying for revenge. But slashed tires or broken windows can ruin a person's life too.

None of this should dissuade a person from saving his life (or his family's lives) but it's important to keep these things in mind so that they're not a surprise should one be unfortunate enough to have to use deadly force.

[C Carman]

My friend and i have a business restoring and modifying classic cars. A few months ago we finished a car for a customer. When he came to pick it up he came with two of his brothers and they started making up excuses as to why they shouldn't have to pay for the work that was done. Eventually the oldest brother started shouting at my friend. The youngest brother who had always been the friendliest was walking around the car looking at it, he smiled over towards me than turned and jumped my friend from behind, punching him in the back. These three brothers are former gang members, with one of them having been convicted for trafficking and driving around with an uzi that wasn't his. With this in mind i started to make a move over to the toolbox that has the shop shotgun in it. Fortunately one of the brothers broke up everything and everyone just shouted at each other for a while. I got out of their line of sight and tried calling 911(being in LA that just got me put on hold). Eventually they left with the car without paying. The only action we could really take was to file a mechanic's lien against the car.

My friend and i talked at length about the situation. It was lose/lose. Had we shot them, they have friends and brothers that would be back and the only thing that would end it would be all of them or both of us being dead. So we pretty much just bent over took a 5500 dollar loss.

Its easy to say just move, but when its your business its kind of a different story. Maybe it should be saved for a separate thread, but how do you go about securing your business when you rely on people walking in?

Sorry for the novel

[BMARM4]

I grew up down on the coast of North Carolina in the '70s. My father was an attorney down there and handled many murder cases over the years. One in particular involved a kid who went to my high school. I didn't really know him as we did not travel in the same circles, luckily. I happened to be a junior in high school at the time.

Anyway, one night this guy was at a party over on one of the beaches. There were a lot of older people there, including a group of 20 something year olds who were caught up in drug dealings. This high school kid left the party about the same time cops showed up at the party to bust folks. The dealers figured the high school kid and his buddy had ratted them out to the locals and they decided to teach the kid a lesson. The dealers were in two different cars. They caught up to the high school kid's car as he was leaving the island and began to bump his car and try to run him off the road. They continued doing this for a few miles, all the way to the kid's house. As the dealers pulled into the kid's driveway, the kid had already fled inside and returned with his father's loaded 12 Ga. and proceeded to intercept the dealers in his driveway. Words were said which resulted in the kid sticking the shotgun into the passenger side open window and blowing the passenger's head off, killing him instantly. Apparently the gun jammed on the next shot and all hell broke loose. The father had already called the cops and they arrived just as the dealers had begun releasing revenge on the kid.

He survived and was brought up on murder charges and then a personal lawsuite from the family of the young man who had been killed. My father represented the high school kid. He was found not guilty in the trial and the wrongful death suite. Unfortunately for me and my family, the young man who was killed was the son of a wealthy businessman and the young man was very popular, and there were many threats of violence against my family.

I myself dealt with years of threats until I went away to college. Many times it would be dangerous for me to go by the beach on my way home after work in the summer because the dead man's friends frequented the same area and would always hassle me and threaten to kill me. Once I was visiting friends at the beach and one of them showed up drunk. His girlfriend warned me he was armed so she and some friends snuck me out the back and across the dunes. About the time I got to the top of the dune, I heard shots start ringing out. I never went back to that beach at night again, which really deprived me of one of every kids pleasures who does grow up at the beach, summer nights over on the beach. But at least I'm alive today to enjoy my own kids.

[kgpcr]

No one wins after a firefight. One lives and one dies but no one comes away clean. I lived and am thankful for it every day i am alive. Some did not but dont ever think shooting some one is studly or manly. My firefights came in the Marines so no worries about retaliation. There was a bounty on our heads by the Iraqis in Desert Storm as we were the ones sneaking across the minefields at night to gain intel. Once in a while you would bump into a patrol or whatever. After a fight you would go through thier pockets to grab and papers they had for intel. Later when it was light out and you went through it you saw pics of family and freinds, Letters from fathers, wives etc. Gives one lots to think about. I dont regret shooting anyone i just take no joy in it at all.

[Redneckrepairs]

This is the popular paper in my area of the state's article on an incident that happened in/around the next town up the road . http://www.chieftain.com/metro/1181306236/15

Now the sheriff up there is no friend to gun owners , but the part that is on topic is his statement :

"I will not be releasing his name because there have been some threats made against him by some of the family members of the victim," said Sheriff Jim Faull.

Note how the home invader became the " victim " here .. see what i mean .. faull is a POS .. but even at that his hands are tied in colorado .

It makes little sense to me .. but then neither would going out to confront someone who has allready shown he is capable and willing to defend his home and self .

[BillCA]

There is more to retaliation than someone coming after you with a gun...

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

We tend to think of the big things. Avoiding jail, avoiding or winning civil suits, keeping an eye open for someone with a gun trying for revenge. But slashed tires or broken windows can ruin a person's life too.

Besides the expense and interruption to your life, these kinds of things wear at your well-being over time and can affect your health, relationships and even your job.

The deceased's fellow gang brethren came back later and set his house on fire.

For me, this would be one of my biggest fears. Waking up to glass breaking and finding the house on fire. Or having them torch your car.

Moving? It might not be the best option. In new surroundings you'll have to relearn all the neighborhood noises (especially night noises) and try to identify which cars belong in the area and when. If you're established in your own neighborhood and are on good terms with neighbors they can be added eyes and ears on your side.

LEOs help me out here... first of all, if someone is charged with a crime, their lawyer can get a copy of the police report which will contain the name & address of the victim and the location of the crime. I'm sure less-than-reputable lawyers may "leak" this information to the BG, but in any event, if the victim testifies, their information is public record.

Secondly, I think most PD's will not release your name, as the victim, to the media if you request it. You may have to ask specifically to talk to their media spokesperson however.

[revjen45]

When I attended FAS Marty Hayes imparted this jewel of wisdom: "The best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it."

[sacp81170a]

As former LEO I know -all- about this topic. In fact one guy who really wanted (still wants?) me dead gets out of prison this year <sigh>.

I hear that. One particularly unsettling fact of life as an LEO is taking some dirtbag to jail and then meeting up with him at the local grocery store a couple of weeks later while you're there with your wife. But, to quote Super Chicken, "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred."

Too bad anyone has to put up with this kind of stuff when all they wanted to do was keep themselves and their loved ones safe. The country's all messed up if the good guys are afraid of the criminals. Makes ya want to grit your teeth.

[Hallucinator]

I'm wondering if burglary laws shouldn't be toughened up a bit. If people had to risk 25 years in prison for burglarizing somebody's home maybe they'd not do it so often. And I think that there should be a special category of punishment for people who invade people's homes and terrorize them.

[BillCA]

Hallucinator,

I'd agree, except that I think there would be pressure to plea-bargain down the time to be served to avoid "overcrowding" the jails.

When something like this happens, the DA typically will charge burglary, false imprisonment, assault and any other crime he think can stick. Once arrested, the bargaining begins and what started out as a potential 50-year term ends up being 18 months with 6-months suspended.

The problem lies primarily with the courts and legal system. I don't get the "logic" of the system when in one case you have 2 prior felonies and shoplift from a department store, the DA prosecutes it as "burglary" to get the 3rd strike instead of a misdemeanor theft.

Yet, in another case a dirtbag breaks into an occupied home, sneaks up and starts to fondle a 12 year old girl who screams, fights and escapes with some lacerations and when the guy is caught, he gets only 9 months in jail with 5 months suspended to cover his 3 week incarceration before trial. Then instead of 4 months in the slam, he's in jail only 2 weeks before being "paroled" into the public.

The country's all messed up if the good guys are afraid of the criminals.

That people fear criminals is nothing new. That's been happening throughout history. But throughout most of history, when a criminal was killed during his crime it was basically considered an occupational-hazard. Unfortunately today, in some jurisdictions, I think people may be equally afraid of the legal system as they are of the criminals.

[Hallucinator]

Bill: shooting more of them would go a long way to relieving the overcrowding problem. By the way, the reason for overcrowding is the five year mandatory minimum drug laws. Every sorry assed little street corner hustler ends up in for 5.

[Alex45ACP]

^ +1

Ending prohibition would be a huge step toward solving the overcrowding problem.

[MacGille]

80% of the people in prison are in for "drug related" crimes. You'd think that we would realise that the war on drugs is lost and legalise them.(the drugs) If we did that we could control the manufacture and quality and make a ton of money on the taxes. Not to mention the reduction of court costs and enforcement costs. The Netherlands have legalised drugs and while they still have addicts, and people are still ruining their lives over this stupidity, they are not paying billions of dollars to control what people put in their bodies.

As far as retaliation goes, everyone has to make his own decisions. As for me, My two sons and I are all ex-special ops types. If it came to it the BGs would learn something about retaliation. I don't look for trouble and I try very hard to stay out of trouble, but I won't lie down and let any SOB run roughshod over me, my family or my friends. And I won't wait for them to make the first move, nor will I wait for the police to protect me.

[OBIWAN]

"but then neither would going out to confront someone who has allready shown he is capable and willing to defend his home and self"

A lot of you tough guys/gals seem to think a confrontation is what you would get

Something out of an old western no doubt

What is more likely is that you would get a lifetime of looking over your shoulder (if you are lucky) escorting your loved ones everywhere, staying away from windows and checking your vehicle for bombs

The bad guys are not likely to announce their intentions....you are more likely to get shot at from concealment and when you least expect it

And don't forget civil actions as well.....

All good reasons why lethal force is a last resort

[buzz_knox]

One particularly unsettling fact of life as an LEO is taking some dirtbag to jail and then meeting up with him at the local grocery store a couple of weeks later while you're there with your wife. But, to quote Super Chicken, "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred."

Happens in a lot of careers, not just law enforcement. A guy I know is on a hit list because he was involved in having surveyors go onto someone's land. The landowner's son has said he'd kill the man someday. We are pretty sure he's serious as he's currently serving time for murdering another of my company's employees over this matter.