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June 3, 2007, 01:15 PM | #76 |
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There are indeed wide variances between makers of OC. While some are apparently near-useless, LEOs seem to constantly endorse Fox Labs as being effective.
And the last time someone around here used it on someone, a lady on a guy who was grabbing on her, the police found him a block away, screaming and pushing his face in the snow. I'd call that effective. |
June 3, 2007, 01:24 PM | #77 | ||||
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I never said to get involved in a situation when armed, but if you are engaged or threatened, is it really necessary to pull CCW first? Sometimes, you run the risk of getting alot of people shot, including yourself. If de-escalation tactics do not work and you have nowhere to go, why is it the first reaction to go for the steel?
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June 3, 2007, 01:31 PM | #78 |
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Whitefeather...I honestly have never looked into the stats, but when we trained with it, my high pain tolerance went out the window. I thought I was pretty dang tough until that first blast from ASP got me in the eyes. The eyes weren't as bad as the inhalation of the dirty spray. That was terrible.
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June 3, 2007, 02:13 PM | #79 | |||
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Actually, OC and mace are two different things. Mace is an older chemical CN. OC is oleoresin capsicum and is derived from peppers. The two have similar yet different effects. OC is generally accepted as more effective. However, OC has an effectiveness of between 70 & 90 percent depending on whose stuidies you believe. It is acknowledged to be less effective on people who are drunk, stoned, insane or with high levels of adrenaline and in fact has been shown to make some people more aggressive.
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I have seen several guys I was in the military with take people out with one punch on a regular basis, even guys who were much bigger than them. Your statement makes the (possibly fatal) assumption that anyone you face will be an "average moron", drunk and/or less well trained than you. That will not always be the case. Quote:
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If you choose to carry LTL for moral reasons that's fine. But it is better to have the mindset that if it is not worth taking a life over, it is not worth getting involved in. |
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June 3, 2007, 02:28 PM | #80 |
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Ever thought about...
Have you ever thought about a laser grip for your side arm? I have recently put one on my browning high power and it seems to me to be the best thing you could buy for your pistol. It only messes me up when I am shooting during the day, but if you’re in a dark place it could be a life saver. Avoid, avoid, avoid, I don’t want to have to shoot someone, or be shot myself. Now that doesn’t mean I am a puss (if my life or families lives or at stake I am going to kill), it means I value my life and have a family to support. So the reason I bought the laser in the first place is the intimidation factor. Just imagine if someone put that red dot on your chest. Puts a little different spin on things doesn’t it? It’s harder to conceal my pistol, so I hardly ever carry (which I should carry more often, and I do have a concealed carry license). But my pistol is always in my truck or night stand along with a surefire flashlight. My surefire is small (fits in the palm of my hand), and I always keep it with my pistol. When you put the surefire and laser grip together you have a very effective combination for avoiding a situation, but at the same time you are very protected (all you have to do is pull the trigger).
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June 3, 2007, 02:29 PM | #81 | ||||
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nope
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June 3, 2007, 02:31 PM | #82 |
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hm..
Macksruger, I never thought of the laser, but that could be a bit of a deterrent in some situations.
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June 3, 2007, 03:40 PM | #83 |
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non exactly LTL
While I would not declare it as completely LTL, my CRKT Kasper knife seems to get the point across relatively well. Somehow, pulling a knife with an almost 4.5" blade screams "leave me alone."
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June 3, 2007, 06:58 PM | #84 | |||||
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I trained in martial arts for about 3 years, and was pretty good too, before I suffered a bad shoulder injury that made me realize I just couldn't do it anymore. The shoulder surgery and the 3 knee surgeries made me realize I wasn't going to be able to continue training like I had been. My instructor was about 5'6" and all of 140lbs. He was far from intimidating but I guarantee you wouldn't stand a chance against him. He's done things that seem to simply defy the laws of physics. So would you know thru your psychic ability that you wouldn't have a chance? You may have had extensive training but not enough to stand up to this guy. I bet you'd try though since you are 7 inches taller and twice his weight, right? Personally, I don't pretend to know what someones background is. I don't know what kind of training anyone has had. If I am under attack, I assume he is the baddest MF I've ever run into. I know well enough to know that just because I'm bigger doesn't mean that I'm gonna win. You have the typical tough guy mentality, and that's gonna be what bites you in the ass one of these days. Quote:
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With all of your statements, I gotta ask, just exactly where did you receive all of this "extensive training"? |
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June 3, 2007, 07:27 PM | #85 | |||||||||
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No Disrespect Intended
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Everyone knows this, I never said that little guys can't hold their own, but if somebody doesn't pull a gun on me, why should I pull mine? If somebody hits my girlfriend or brother while I am out with them, I will have an issue with that and will react. If someone hits me, I am not going to be a coward and pull a gun on them. Quote:
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June 3, 2007, 07:28 PM | #86 | ||
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What I firmly disagree with is: The thought that it is wise to enter into a physical altercation when armed. The thought that you should take an ass whippin' or even a punch just because you are armed and they are not. The thought that you won't get knocked out, down or have your gun knocked out of the holster by fighting with someone. If it is up to you, the thought of getting involved in an incident that does not call for the application of deadly force beyond the extent of calling 911 and being a good witness. The idea that closing the distance between you and the BG is somehow a good idea. Quote:
So, the point wasn't that they wouldn't retaliate, it was that the odds of that entire scenarion playing out are extremely small. BTW, a knife is not in any way shape or form considered even a little LTL. Knives are definately lethal weapons. If you ever run into a guy named Daniel Buckner or Dexter Phillips, you will have met two guys who could take you out with one punch. |
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June 3, 2007, 07:38 PM | #87 | |
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Last edited by kcshooter; June 3, 2007 at 11:30 PM. |
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June 3, 2007, 11:49 PM | #88 | |
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again...?
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1. Never even said that. 2. Why shoot someone who just throws a punch? Again, who will a court side with? 3. I actually said that was a reason to avoid a confrontation. 4. Where did I say that? 5. If I said that, it was a mis-type.
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June 3, 2007, 11:53 PM | #89 | |||
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June 4, 2007, 05:27 AM | #90 | |
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BAD idea, IMO. The laser should only be used if you intend to fire RIGHT THEN, as a targeting aid. It's not a deterrent! And you never draw unless you're about to pull that trigger, or you shouldn't draw! The "red dot on chest, oh, I give up!" thing is pure movie nonsense. Don't do it, good way to end up dead. It's a targeting aid. Period. |
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June 4, 2007, 09:44 AM | #91 | |||||||
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I
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I believe my military record, commendations, and the fact that I have survived several armed confrontations disqualifies me as a coward in most people's books. So, please feel free to state your opinions, but please refrain from passing sweeping judgements on people whom you don't know. This one is not about you: Quote:
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June 4, 2007, 11:21 AM | #92 | |||||||
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Lurper,
I by no means mean that those who draw their weapons are always cowards. I have a younger brother who is serving in the Marine Corps in Iraq right now, so I have the highest respect for those in service. I do have a few questions: Quote:
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June 4, 2007, 11:26 AM | #93 | |
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Last edited by kcshooter; June 4, 2007 at 12:48 PM. |
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June 4, 2007, 11:49 AM | #94 |
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DougO83
I don't recall posting anything derogatory about you in any of my posts. I try to stick to the message, not shoot the messenger. In answer to the question, announcing that you are armed if you are in fear of serious bodily injury or death is not a threat. Nor is displaying your weapon under the same conditions considered brandishment. That is true in AZ, know your state's law. Announcing you are armed is part of the process, you should do that while you dial 911, all the steps that you take to avoid the confrontation strengthen your position should your attacker press the attack. In most cases, gettng jumped constitutes a threat of serious bodily harm or death. I could care less whether my attacker, witnesses or anyone else thinks my actions cowardly or not. The only thing that is important is that I survive in one piece. Taken in a vacuum, one punch does not necessarily warrant a bullet in the chest. However, one punch is not usually the entire confrontation. My main point is that by taking one punch you risk being disarmed, injured or killed. My position is that announcing you are armed, calling 911 etc. before punches are thrown will in most cases get you out of the situation. If it does not, then I think most people would consider the situation life threatening. |
June 6, 2007, 05:49 PM | #95 |
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ok
Lurper,
I had a minute to think about this and wanted to try and figure something out. Ok, if I know I am going to be assaulted or if I believe that is someone's intent, I may draw my weapon to dissuade them. However, if I am blindsided...what then? Is it not more reasonable to try and physically get the person off of me? And if that works, am I still justified in clearing leather?
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June 6, 2007, 06:54 PM | #96 |
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The crucial part (in AZ, not sure about TX) is that you be in fear of serious bodily harm or death. If you are blindsided and they guy walks away, that should be a no-brainer. The threat no longer exists. If you are blindsided, the guy jumps on top of you and continues to beat you, then the threat clearly exists.
IMO, it doesn't make sense to try to get them off of you unless you are unable to draw and fire. Then you should try to get in a position that allows you to. If you get them off of you and the don't continue the assault, then you are not justified in shooting them. If they do, you are. Each situation is different as is each state's laws. Keep that in mind because IRL it is not quite as cut and dry as it is in the comfort of your own computer chair. It is important that you know your state's law on the use of deadly force. |
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