Metal's Q & A

[Metal god]

Thought I might try this and see if it works . Rather then start a new thread for each reloading question . I'll ask them all here .

Feel free to answer all , some or none , expand apon my questions or just have a good laugh . and thanks for your help

1) For my 308 target rifle

I just bought a head space gage that measures the case from the shoulder the the head . You measure a fired case and then FL size that and all other cases .002 smaller .

A fired case from my chamber measures 1.627 that would mean I should size to 1.625 . The issue I have is I have some fired cases that have not stretched to the full length of my chamber . At what point do you guys think the case is to short . My shortest one is 1.618 and I have a Bunch at 1.622 . At what point does the shorter case effect noticeable accuracy ( sub moa ).

2)

I'm getting suet around the case neck of my fired reloads and do not with factory loads . The suet stops where the shoulder starts . Is this normal and or an issue in any way ? I've been told it's bad and I've been told don't worry about it . Thought I'd ask here .

3)

I'm sure I'll need to turn down my necks at some point . I have already been seeing loaded cases that once measured .337 now measure .385 after a few firings and FL sizing . At what point if ever do you turn your necks ? What is a good tool for the job under $200 ?

[Bart B.]

A .004" spread across fired case headspace as measured by gauges that do so is normal with some reduced loads, but the spread's usually about .002" to .003" with maximum loads. Setting the average back .002" is about right, any more and case stretching at the pressure ring starts happening and head separation cracks start soon after that. Too much setback of the shoulder means the firing pin will indent the primer less and less and that means less uniform primer detonation. Accuracy starts to degrade.

Black powder residue around case necks is as normal a sunrise. The case neck seldom expands to full chamber neck diameter sealing out such stuff before the bullet leaves the barrel.

.337" to .385" loaded round neck diameters is about .050" increase. Something abnormal is causing that much change. I rarely see more than .0005" change over a couple dozen reloads per case. I suggest remeasuring all things and making sure you're not messing up someplace. Where are you measuring the diameter and are you using the same make/model bullet all the time as well as the same case?

[Metal god]

sorry your right there is a type-O there . They went from .337 to .3385 . Not sure if it matters but I now know that I was sizing my brass at least 10 thousandths shorter then my chamber from shoulder to base . Some I believe were as much as .016 short . Could that cause more brass flow to the neck . I should add that I did not check the hole lot of cases . Just measured a few and saw the bigger measurement in a couple .

Too much setback of the shoulder means the firing pin will indent the primer less and less and that means less uniform primer detonation. Accuracy starts to degrade.

How bad do you think it could get ? I've been having a bear of a time with consistent groupings with the same loads Ive worked up . More so with the heavier charges then the less/ reduced ones . I've been thinking the issue has been the stock / Action screw torque / rifle in some way . could it have been the short cases this whole time ? one day the load will shoot sub moa no problem . The next time out I can't get the same load to shoot moa .

I should add that they were consistently short . I would say they were FL sized from 1.613 to 1.618 ( just a guess From some old cases I sized and have not yet fired ). with recent fired cases measuring 1.627 . I was not sizing some at 1.613 and others at 1.627 and everywhere in between .

[Bart B.]

.016" shoulder setback is way too much and that puts a lot of extra brass in the case neck as what used to be on the shoulder's now swaged down into the neck. That's the cause. I'd size 'em to no less than 1.625".

And varying amounts of case lube on the case can cause big spreads. Use a thin coat as uniformly distributed as possible.

Better yet, get a set of Redding Competition shell holders then use the one that lets the die size fired cases to 1.625" with the shell holder hard against the bottom of the die. This produces the most uniform case headspace.

[Metal god]

Well what I did wrong was set the die up per instructions . When I do so it sizes my brass short . I did not know that at the time and just sized away . Now that I can measure that length . I now know how off I was . They say your die should touch your shell holder . To size my cases to 1.625 there is quite a big gap between the two when the ram is fully extended while FL sizing . I bet you'll never guess what size feeler gage fits in between there .

Thats right .010 and I can force .011 but it gets stuck .

I have the die set up perfect now . I was using feeler gages under the case in the shell holder like Gooffy once recommended but got tired of doing that so I just adjusted the die till I got it right . I'll say it's not that easy to adjust a die by .001 but I got it .

I have 2 308s , I'm using my FL bushing die for the Savage target rifle and a standard FL die for my Ruger hunting rifle . That way I don't have to mess with the dies to get both rifles dead on . Each one has it's own die set for it's chamber . The Ruger is a bit longer and although I can chamber a sized case for the Ruger in my Savage . It's a little tight when closing the bolt , not to bad but I can feel it .

FWIW , I changed from one shot spray lube to sizing wax . Alough it.s more work I like the wax a lot better . It works good as a release agent when bedding your action as well .

[dahermit]

I'm getting suet [SIC, "soot"]around the case neck of my fired reloads and do not with factory loads . The suet stops where the shoulder starts . Is this normal and or an issue in any way ? I've been told it's bad and I've been told don't worry about it .

It can be a sign of too little of a too slow powder, and/or excessive free bore depending upon how much soot and how far down the case body it goes, if at all. That is probably why someone has told you that it is "bad".

[Metal god]

Thanks but only on the neck and it seems pretty "sooty" but stops dead right at the shoulder . The rest of the case is crisp and clean .

[Bart B.]

Use one of these on your die lock rings:

http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/a...justment-1.jpg

They are easy to make tiny height adjustments.

[Metal god]

.

what ES are you willing to except for bullet weight when it comes to target shooting for accuracy ? Right now I'm getting a .3-.4gr ave spread out of 50 bullets weighed and a ES of .8gr but that was 1 out of 50 the rest are with in .5gr and most with in .3gr

Just got some primers and wanted to know if vacuum sealing them is OK ? Or do they need to breath ? I've noticed when I have unloaded primed cases in a bag . It seems air builds up in the bag . Not sure where thats coming from unless the primers are off gassing .

1235

[44 AMP]

Thanks but only on the neck and it seems pretty "sooty" but stops dead right at the shoulder . The rest of the case is crisp and clean .

Neck soot, and none on the shoulder says that the shoulder is sealed against the chamber when the bullet leaves the case mouth. It also says the case neck is not sealed against the chamber walls at that same instant.

This is NOT a bad thing.

Measure the neck diameter of a loaded factory round, vs. your handloads. Bet you see a small difference.

[Jeff2131]

I have been wondering about dirty cases after shooting too. I picked up some brass the other day from someone else shooting an ar15 and compared them to the cases from my ar15 and mine were much dirtier. Mine stops at the base of the shoulder. I use imr4320 26gr load with a 55gr hollow point and cci 400 primers. The dirty cases clean up easily but was wondering why this other guys cases werent very dirty at all.....

[44 AMP]

The dirty cases clean up easily but was wondering why this other guys cases werent very dirty at all.....

\
Probably because they were using a different powder. Each powder has slightly different characteristics, and that includes how much soot they leave, and under what conditions.

[Metal god]

So what do I do with the cases that are .010 or more shorter from datum to head then I want and or need . I have over 100 .308 cases that are way to short and it seems dumb to load them with match components if there not going to shoot right in my rifles .

Before when I did not know they were to short I did not care . Heck I do things wrong all the time but don't know it . Knowing they're sized wrong and still loading them does not sit well . Now that I know they're sized wrong . I feel like I would be loading a garbage round and a waist of time and money

I'm not selling or throwing them out cus they will still work . Do I load at the safe high end charge and stretch them out once or what ? At worst I'll load them as fouling rounds .

[snuffy]

Primers are sealed units. They need no special care. Store them in their original containers, on any shelf or cabinet . Most have a drop of lacquer on top of the anvil that effectively seals them.

As for those too short shells, the ONLY way is to shoot them with something to allow the shoulder to move back to where you want it One method is to shoot with a bullet tight against the rifling to position the case head against the bolt face, and keep it there. Might be wise to reduce your normal load, bullet-tight-to-the-rifling can increase pressure.

[44 AMP]

0.010" isn't a lot. ANY load should stretch the case back to full chamber dimensions.

GO measure a new factory round and see if it is "short" and if so, by how much. I'm betting you will find it somewhere below the max length from head to datum line.

No, I wouldn't try to built match loads out of components that weren't "perfect", but I think you will find the short cases will shoot ok, possibly you might not see a difference. Even if you do, so what? Use them for practice and next time size them differently.

or just sell them as fired brass. Somebody will buy them, especially if you don't ask too much.

Most "regular" reloaders will check the case length, and then run them through a FL sizer anyway.