Headspace issue with 5.56 and Redding National Match dies

cwsanfor · July 26, 2012, 09:08 AM

I am about to load my first 5.56 rounds and have a case headspacing question.

The cases are from LC M885 fired once in my SIG556. The equipment includes a Lee Turret (Hornady LNL AP and Lee Classic SS available but not being used), Redding National Match Die Set, Hornady Comparator, Giraud Trimmer, and L. E. Wilson case gauge.

I deprimed and tumbled the brass, swaged it in a Dillon D-600 SuperSwage, debarred and uniformed the flash holes and primer pockets, lubed with Imperial Sixing Wax, and sized in the Redding die, measuring the before and after comparator lengths of each. I then trimmed each case to 1.7523 in the Giraud.

I had previously set up the die to touch the shell plate, then about 1/8th further turn down. The press deflects slightly when I pull the lever, so I have some cam over.

I measured each of 107 cases with the Hornady Comparator, and got an average of 0.0029" shoulder pushback using the Redding Competition Shell Holder (0.006""). Thought I was GTG. Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge.

At this point I figure the SIG556 must have larger than usual chamber headspace, and that I need more than .003" shoulder pushback to be within SAAMI spec, so I take some previously sized brass, put in the Redding Shell Holders 004", 002" and the standard Lee shell holder, increasing the shoulder pushback with each one. None of these resizings caused the case to properly fit the Wilson gauge: it seems I still did not push the shoulders back enough to be within SAAMI standards.

Not sure where to go from here. Options that come to mind include:

1) Lower the Redding sizing die, then see if case sized it it will clear the case gauge,
2) Try the Lee Dies until I can figure out how to set the Reddings,
3) Ignore the case gauge, load and fire these rounds and see what happens,
4) Ignore the SAAMI spec and assume the SIG556 has a very long headspace (same as 3),
5) Something else.

Thanks in advance.

mrawesome22 · July 26, 2012, 10:27 AM

I'm confused. You say you were pushing the shoulder back .029"

, then you say .003"....

You say Lee comparator but there is no such thing. Hornady makes one, and RCBS makes the precision mic.

.003" to .004" of shoulder bump is what you should aim for an auto, .001" to .002" for a bolt.

If you truly are getting .029" of shoulder bump, you are gonna have case head separations in no time.
Sent from a Linux kernel.

cwsanfor · July 26, 2012, 10:37 AM

It was I being confused. I meant "Hornady comparator" and "0.0029". Thanks for the correction. I edited the post.

mrawesome22 · July 26, 2012, 11:00 AM

Ok. Well unless you are wanting this ammo to function in a bunch of different guns, the L.E. Wilson gauge is useless.

Sent from a Linux kernel.

cwsanfor · July 26, 2012, 11:11 AM

mrawesome22,

I am in fact only loading 5.56 for one gun, but could you expand on that?

mrawesome22 · July 26, 2012, 12:10 PM

If the ammo coming from your die functions in your gun, that is all that matters.

Your auto gun probably has a generous chamber to help with reliable feeding.

Again, if the die you are using sizes your brass to function in your gun, who cares what the Wilson gauge says.

Sent from a Linux kernel.

cwsanfor · July 28, 2012, 02:55 PM

Thanks for your feedback. The bolt closed, and all ten test rounds fired without a problem. After firing, the shoulders were pushed out an average of 0.0012", so my die setting of 0.0029" shoulder setback seems appropriate. I suppose I could reduce it a hair, but this seems fine for now.

I am not sure the Wilson Gauge is useful to me since I an not loading to my particular barrel, not to .223 Remington SAAMI standards, so it goes back to Midway, and I'll continue with the Hornady Comparator.

jepp2 · July 28, 2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge.

I find the Wilson gage can give false readings due to any kind of imperfection on the rim of the case. If you decide to keep it, put the cases in head first to make sure the rim passes without interference before inserting it in the normal fashion.

I find the Hornady comparator easier to get accurate measurements than the Wilson gage. Not saying the Wilson gage will not work, but I just find the Hornady to be my preference.

wncchester · July 28, 2012, 07:01 PM

We can load for our rifle or a drop-in gage or some where in between. But we gonna shoot 'em from the rifle.

F. Guffey · July 28, 2012, 07:52 PM

"I measured each of 107 cases with the Hornady Comparator, and got an average of 0.0029" shoulder pushback using the Redding Competition Shell Holder (0.006""). Thought I was GTG. Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge"

Again, you are adjusting the die down to the shell plate then you are using a Redding competition +.006 shell holder, I do not have a press that allows me to use shell plates and shell holder, not fair but thses things do not lock me up. then in you ‘thoroughness’ you measured the sized case that was sized in the Redding +.006” Competition shell holder with a L.E. Wilson case gage.

Again, the Redding Competition shell holder prevents the die from moving the shoulder back , I could ask the question “Why wouldn’t the case protrude from the Wilson case gage” (I do not expect an answer, I do not expect anyone to understand the question).

Again, I would suggest you measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder before firing and again after firing, the difference between the two measurements would aid you in determining the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

Wilson case gage: It matters not what gage you prefer to use and or keep, I make gages out of junk with little or no money invested, I understand the concept of .000 (zero), I understand the straight edge as it applies to ‘measured from’ or ‘to’.

“I find the Wilson gage can give false readings due to any kind of imperfection on the rim of the case. If you decide to keep it, put the cases in head first to make sure the rim passes without interference before inserting it in the normal fashion”

The Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage measures fired and unfired case length from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. Problem: A reloader can not measure the length of a case from the head of the case to its shoulder with a Wilson case gage. Most sell the Wilson gage short due to limitations, they do not read the instructions, Wilson suggest using a pocket rule, imagine, a reloader with a pocket rule, I suggest a straight edge.

“Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge” I measure the case protrusion above the Wilson gage in thousandths, I transfer the protrusion in thousandths to my press, die and shell holder, no case comparator, no Hornady/Sinclair gage etc..

F. Guffey

cwsanfor · July 29, 2012, 06:02 AM

>> My replies are inline.

Again, the Redding Competition shell holder prevents the die from moving the shoulder back , I could ask the question “Why wouldn’t the case protrude from the Wilson case gage” (I do not expect an answer, I do not expect anyone to understand the question).

>> I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much. However, using Dykem Blue on the case shoulder and inserting it backwards into the Wilson die I've determined that it is the rim keeping the cases from going all the way into the gauge. Apparently this gun is hard on brass.

Again, I would suggest you measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder before firing and again after firing, the difference between the two measurements would aid you in determining the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

>> That is an excellent idea: I will do just that and post the results here.

“I find the Wilson gage can give false readings due to any kind of imperfection on the rim of the case. If you decide to keep it, put the cases in head first to make sure the rim passes without interference before inserting it in the normal fashion”

>> This was the issue I was seeing.

The Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage measures fired and unfired case length from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. Problem: A reloader can not measure the length of a case from the head of the case to its shoulder with a Wilson case gage. Most sell the Wilson gage short due to limitations, they do not read the instructions, Wilson suggest using a pocket rule, imagine, a reloader with a pocket rule, I suggest a straight edge.

>> I think that the Wilson gauge would work fine for me if I wanted to straighten out all these rims and remove extractor/ejector marks, but I do not.

>> I appreciate your observations, Mr. Guffey.

F. Guffey · July 29, 2012, 10:31 AM

>> I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much. However, using Dykem Blue on the case shoulder and inserting it backwards into the Wilson die I've determined that it is the rim keeping the cases from going all the way into the gauge. Apparently this gun is hard on brass.

Again, the Redding Competition shell holders are designed to avoid shoulder set back, the #6 +.006 thousandths shell holder adds .006 thousandths to the length of the case, for a 30/06 chamber that would be equal to +.001 thousandths over a go gage length chamber, when applied to a minimum length/full length case after sizing the case would be minimum length/full length sized +.006 thousandths. You are sizing 223 Remington cases, not 30/06 cases.

Again, the case will protrude from the top of the Wilson case gage, you added .006 thousandths to the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder (datum). “I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much”, “Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge” Back to understanding much, “slightly” is an accepted term on reloading forums by those that do not know much, the protrusion above the gage can be measured in thousandths by one reloader on this forum, to him “slightly” has no value, slightly is the same taking a wildguestimate of a turn on a die.

Slightly above: Drop in gage: Two terms that prevent me from taking someone seriously.

Forget dropping the case into the gage, place the case on a flat, hard, lever surface, place the gage on the case gage, after placing the gage on the case the gage will be supported by the shoulder of the case, the case shoulder will be contacting the datum in the gage. To determine the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder over minimum length/full length sized measure the gap between the gage and flat, lever hard surface. This method beats '”slightly” or worse “I can feel it with my finger nail”.

Condemn the tool? “I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much”. Again, you do not know if the protrusion is slightly or .006 thousandths, so forgive me if I do not take your evaluation of the Wilson case gage seriously.

Back to methods and techniques, Wilson case gages have been around for years, their instructions suggested using a steel rule, a steel rule is a straight edge, to move beyond “do not understand much” determine what the steel rule is/can be used for. I could use a height gage, I could use a depth gage, I could use a dial indicator to determine the protrusion of the case above the Wilson case gage, instead I use a straight edge and a feeler gage and that my friend causes most to the curb, depth micrometer, height gage, dial caliper (notice I omitted make, model brand and country or origin) or the most humble and modest of tools, again, the feeler gage.

Years ago a country song writer/singer wrote a country song and then declared it to be the "’PERFECT COUNTRY SONG”. another more modest writer/singer said “NOT SO”, he then sent additional lyrics, seems there were basic elements that would never be omitted from the perfect country song so he added a few basic elements, went something like this, “My mother got drunk the day they let me out of prison, she came to pick me up in an old pick-up truck and got run over by a &$@ *#! train”.

Dykem Blue, it matters not what tool you are using, how you choose to use your tools is up to you, you can drop a case into the Wilson case gage or get a straight edge, pocket rule, flat/level/hard surface and the most humble/modest tool of all the feeler gage, there is room when using the feeler gage, there are Snap-on made gages, there are Starret made feeler gages, sound good, “I use a Snap-On feeler gage when transferring measurements from the chamber to the die, press and shell holder, get both “I use the Starret feeler gage when verifying adjustments”.

F. Guffey

603Country · July 29, 2012, 06:14 PM

I've held my tongue for too long. Forgive me for being critical and maybe being unfair, but sometimes I think Mr Guffey has the same intent as James Michener - why use 40 words if you can use 100. Listen to mrawesome22 and his advice and it'll be good advice, will be easy to understand, and won't be insulting.

cwsanfor · July 29, 2012, 06:30 PM

Yes, I have done just that. I was having some instrumental errors with the micrometer the first round with this brass, I think I have that sorted out with this iteration, have more consistent setback readings. I'm getting ready to load 100 and head rangeward Saturday.

Thanks to mrawesome22 and the others that offered useful comments.

F. Guffey · July 30, 2012, 08:58 AM

To agree with you and Mrawesome22 would make all three of us wrong.

“Ok. Well unless you are wanting this ammo to function in a bunch of different guns, the L.E. Wilson gauge is useless”

Sent from a Linux kernel.

Again, I have no trouble moving the shoulder out (increasing the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder), my favorite cases are cases shot in trashy old chambers, that makes no sense to anyone but for me it is a matter of measuring the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder to determine the length of the chamber the case was fired in, not my chamber, not my cases, for .08 to .10 cents each it beats the price of a bullet, primer and powder. I am not a fire former, I form first then fire. To fire form, pull the trigger.

Back to the Wilson case gage and useless, I can sort cases by length in thousandths from the head of the case to its shoulder. Back to the belief the Wilson case gage is a chamber gage, the directions/instructions make it very clear, the Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage is designed to be used with fired and minimum length/full length sized cases. My Wilson case gages are datums, I collect datums, I make datums and I purchase datums, a reloader that does not understand datums can pay for their ignorance (ignorance: simply the art of not knowing) not knowing, that is Ok, now wanting to know is to claim the Wilson case gage is useless.

Go from useless to helpless, hand a reloader a Wilson cases gage, it is not the gage that is useless, it is the reloader that is helpless, reloaders take short cuts as in knowing nothing about a micrometer to owning one. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, there is a difference between not knowing and not wanting to know, the Wilson case gage can be used with a straight edge, steel rule, set-up table, depth micrometer or the most common tool found around the reloading bench, the dial caliper, and of course, the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

As I have said, I took a picture of my micrometers and gages, the picture weighed 400 lbs. on appearance a number of micrometers and gages have missing parts, gages and micrometers that appear of be missing parts are designed/depend on the user to furnish the “measure to” the Wilson case gage furnished the “Measure from ‘DATUM’ “

The concept of datum as it applies to measure from to smith and reloaders never had a chance, from the beginning they were told the datum was a line, I claimed the datum was a circle/round hole, needless to say that ran everyone into the curb.

there was a king that offered a large portion of his Kingdom to someone that could make what appeared to be an impossible object, problem, the story can not be told in ‘10 words or less'.

Again, anyone can purchase a micrometer/gage, I want all the use I can get out of each one, when I evaluate a tool I must be fair and objective, when I critique a tool I must be objective, back to agreeing, if the evaluation is not fair and objective it has no value.

Again, I make tools.

F. Guffey

There is an outside chance someone will reading this thread and be provoked to think, I have been half successful in my effort, now for the thinking part, never be so conceited to think my effort is about you.

July 26, 2012, 09:08 AM	#1
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	Headspace issue with 5.56 and Redding National Match dies I am about to load my first 5.56 rounds and have a case headspacing question. The cases are from LC M885 fired once in my SIG556. The equipment includes a Lee Turret (Hornady LNL AP and Lee Classic SS available but not being used), Redding National Match Die Set, Hornady Comparator, Giraud Trimmer, and L. E. Wilson case gauge. I deprimed and tumbled the brass, swaged it in a Dillon D-600 SuperSwage, debarred and uniformed the flash holes and primer pockets, lubed with Imperial Sixing Wax, and sized in the Redding die, measuring the before and after comparator lengths of each. I then trimmed each case to 1.7523 in the Giraud. I had previously set up the die to touch the shell plate, then about 1/8th further turn down. The press deflects slightly when I pull the lever, so I have some cam over. I measured each of 107 cases with the Hornady Comparator, and got an average of 0.0029" shoulder pushback using the Redding Competition Shell Holder (0.006""). Thought I was GTG. Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge. At this point I figure the SIG556 must have larger than usual chamber headspace, and that I need more than .003" shoulder pushback to be within SAAMI spec, so I take some previously sized brass, put in the Redding Shell Holders 004", 002" and the standard Lee shell holder, increasing the shoulder pushback with each one. None of these resizings caused the case to properly fit the Wilson gauge: it seems I still did not push the shoulders back enough to be within SAAMI standards. Not sure where to go from here. Options that come to mind include: 1) Lower the Redding sizing die, then see if case sized it it will clear the case gauge, 2) Try the Lee Dies until I can figure out how to set the Reddings, 3) Ignore the case gauge, load and fire these rounds and see what happens, 4) Ignore the SAAMI spec and assume the SIG556 has a very long headspace (same as 3), 5) Something else. Thanks in advance. __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage Last edited by cwsanfor; July 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM.

July 26, 2012, 10:27 AM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	I'm confused. You say you were pushing the shoulder back .029", then you say .003".... You say Lee comparator but there is no such thing. Hornady makes one, and RCBS makes the precision mic. .003" to .004" of shoulder bump is what you should aim for an auto, .001" to .002" for a bolt. If you truly are getting .029" of shoulder bump, you are gonna have case head separations in no time. Sent from a Linux kernel.

July 26, 2012, 10:37 AM	#3
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	It was I being confused. I meant "Hornady comparator" and "0.0029". Thanks for the correction. I edited the post. __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage

July 26, 2012, 11:11 AM	#5
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	mrawesome22, I am in fact only loading 5.56 for one gun, but could you expand on that? __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage

July 28, 2012, 02:55 PM	#7
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	Thanks for your feedback. The bolt closed, and all ten test rounds fired without a problem. After firing, the shoulders were pushed out an average of 0.0012", so my die setting of 0.0029" shoulder setback seems appropriate. I suppose I could reduce it a hair, but this seems fine for now. I am not sure the Wilson Gauge is useful to me since I an not loading to my particular barrel, not to .223 Remington SAAMI standards, so it goes back to Midway, and I'll continue with the Hornady Comparator. __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage

July 26, 2012, 11:00 AM	#4
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	Ok. Well unless you are wanting this ammo to function in a bunch of different guns, the L.E. Wilson gauge is useless. Sent from a Linux kernel.

July 26, 2012, 12:10 PM	#6
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	If the ammo coming from your die functions in your gun, that is all that matters. Your auto gun probably has a generous chamber to help with reliable feeding. Again, if the die you are using sizes your brass to function in your gun, who cares what the Wilson gauge says. Sent from a Linux kernel.

July 28, 2012, 07:01 PM	#9
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	We can load for our rifle or a drop-in gage or some where in between. But we gonna shoot 'em from the rifle.

July 28, 2012, 07:52 PM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"I measured each of 107 cases with the Hornady Comparator, and got an average of 0.0029" shoulder pushback using the Redding Competition Shell Holder (0.006""). Thought I was GTG. Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge" Again, you are adjusting the die down to the shell plate then you are using a Redding competition +.006 shell holder, I do not have a press that allows me to use shell plates and shell holder, not fair but thses things do not lock me up. then in you ‘thoroughness’ you measured the sized case that was sized in the Redding +.006” Competition shell holder with a L.E. Wilson case gage. Again, the Redding Competition shell holder prevents the die from moving the shoulder back , I could ask the question “Why wouldn’t the case protrude from the Wilson case gage” (I do not expect an answer, I do not expect anyone to understand the question). Again, I would suggest you measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder before firing and again after firing, the difference between the two measurements would aid you in determining the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. Wilson case gage: It matters not what gage you prefer to use and or keep, I make gages out of junk with little or no money invested, I understand the concept of .000 (zero), I understand the straight edge as it applies to ‘measured from’ or ‘to’. “I find the Wilson gage can give false readings due to any kind of imperfection on the rim of the case. If you decide to keep it, put the cases in head first to make sure the rim passes without interference before inserting it in the normal fashion” The Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage measures fired and unfired case length from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. Problem: A reloader can not measure the length of a case from the head of the case to its shoulder with a Wilson case gage. Most sell the Wilson gage short due to limitations, they do not read the instructions, Wilson suggest using a pocket rule, imagine, a reloader with a pocket rule, I suggest a straight edge. “Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge” I measure the case protrusion above the Wilson gage in thousandths, I transfer the protrusion in thousandths to my press, die and shell holder, no case comparator, no Hornady/Sinclair gage etc.. F. Guffey

July 29, 2012, 06:02 AM	#11
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	>> My replies are inline. Again, the Redding Competition shell holder prevents the die from moving the shoulder back , I could ask the question “Why wouldn’t the case protrude from the Wilson case gage” (I do not expect an answer, I do not expect anyone to understand the question). >> I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much. However, using Dykem Blue on the case shoulder and inserting it backwards into the Wilson die I've determined that it is the rim keeping the cases from going all the way into the gauge. Apparently this gun is hard on brass. Again, I would suggest you measure the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder before firing and again after firing, the difference between the two measurements would aid you in determining the effect the chamber had on the case when fired. >> That is an excellent idea: I will do just that and post the results here. “I find the Wilson gage can give false readings due to any kind of imperfection on the rim of the case. If you decide to keep it, put the cases in head first to make sure the rim passes without interference before inserting it in the normal fashion” >> This was the issue I was seeing. The Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage measures fired and unfired case length from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case. Problem: A reloader can not measure the length of a case from the head of the case to its shoulder with a Wilson case gage. Most sell the Wilson gage short due to limitations, they do not read the instructions, Wilson suggest using a pocket rule, imagine, a reloader with a pocket rule, I suggest a straight edge. >> I think that the Wilson gauge would work fine for me if I wanted to straighten out all these rims and remove extractor/ejector marks, but I do not. >> I appreciate your observations, Mr. Guffey. __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage

July 29, 2012, 10:31 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	>> I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much. However, using Dykem Blue on the case shoulder and inserting it backwards into the Wilson die I've determined that it is the rim keeping the cases from going all the way into the gauge. Apparently this gun is hard on brass. Again, the Redding Competition shell holders are designed to avoid shoulder set back, the #6 +.006 thousandths shell holder adds .006 thousandths to the length of the case, for a 30/06 chamber that would be equal to +.001 thousandths over a go gage length chamber, when applied to a minimum length/full length case after sizing the case would be minimum length/full length sized +.006 thousandths. You are sizing 223 Remington cases, not 30/06 cases. Again, the case will protrude from the top of the Wilson case gage, you added .006 thousandths to the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder (datum). “I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much”, “Then I got an L. E. Wilson Gauge and all of the case bases I checked protrude slightly (about a rim's width) above the high step of the gauge” Back to understanding much, “slightly” is an accepted term on reloading forums by those that do not know much, the protrusion above the gage can be measured in thousandths by one reloader on this forum, to him “slightly” has no value, slightly is the same taking a wildguestimate of a turn on a die. Slightly above: Drop in gage: Two terms that prevent me from taking someone seriously. Forget dropping the case into the gage, place the case on a flat, hard, lever surface, place the gage on the case gage, after placing the gage on the case the gage will be supported by the shoulder of the case, the case shoulder will be contacting the datum in the gage. To determine the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder over minimum length/full length sized measure the gap between the gage and flat, lever hard surface. This method beats '”slightly” or worse “I can feel it with my finger nail”. Condemn the tool? “I am a beginner at loading bottle-neck rifle, and indeed do not understand much”. Again, you do not know if the protrusion is slightly or .006 thousandths, so forgive me if I do not take your evaluation of the Wilson case gage seriously. Back to methods and techniques, Wilson case gages have been around for years, their instructions suggested using a steel rule, a steel rule is a straight edge, to move beyond “do not understand much” determine what the steel rule is/can be used for. I could use a height gage, I could use a depth gage, I could use a dial indicator to determine the protrusion of the case above the Wilson case gage, instead I use a straight edge and a feeler gage and that my friend causes most to the curb, depth micrometer, height gage, dial caliper (notice I omitted make, model brand and country or origin) or the most humble and modest of tools, again, the feeler gage. Years ago a country song writer/singer wrote a country song and then declared it to be the "’PERFECT COUNTRY SONG”. another more modest writer/singer said “NOT SO”, he then sent additional lyrics, seems there were basic elements that would never be omitted from the perfect country song so he added a few basic elements, went something like this, “My mother got drunk the day they let me out of prison, she came to pick me up in an old pick-up truck and got run over by a &$@ *#! train”. Dykem Blue, it matters not what tool you are using, how you choose to use your tools is up to you, you can drop a case into the Wilson case gage or get a straight edge, pocket rule, flat/level/hard surface and the most humble/modest tool of all the feeler gage, there is room when using the feeler gage, there are Snap-on made gages, there are Starret made feeler gages, sound good, “I use a Snap-On feeler gage when transferring measurements from the chamber to the die, press and shell holder, get both “I use the Starret feeler gage when verifying adjustments”. F. Guffey

July 29, 2012, 06:14 PM	#13
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	I've held my tongue for too long. Forgive me for being critical and maybe being unfair, but sometimes I think Mr Guffey has the same intent as James Michener - why use 40 words if you can use 100. Listen to mrawesome22 and his advice and it'll be good advice, will be easy to understand, and won't be insulting.

July 29, 2012, 06:30 PM	#14
cwsanfor Member Join Date: December 15, 2010 Posts: 15	Yes, I have done just that. I was having some instrumental errors with the micrometer the first round with this brass, I think I have that sorted out with this iteration, have more consistent setback readings. I'm getting ready to load 100 and head rangeward Saturday. Thanks to mrawesome22 and the others that offered useful comments. __________________ Glock Armorer 2011 Glock Sports Shooting Foundation, Project Appleseed Glock Generation 3 G20sf/22/34/19/26, SIG556, Ruger 10/22, Mossberg 500 Hornady LNL AP, Lee Classic Turret, Lee Classic Cast Single Stage

July 30, 2012, 08:58 AM	#15
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	To agree with you and Mrawesome22 would make all three of us wrong. “Ok. Well unless you are wanting this ammo to function in a bunch of different guns, the L.E. Wilson gauge is useless” Sent from a Linux kernel. Again, I have no trouble moving the shoulder out (increasing the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder), my favorite cases are cases shot in trashy old chambers, that makes no sense to anyone but for me it is a matter of measuring the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder to determine the length of the chamber the case was fired in, not my chamber, not my cases, for .08 to .10 cents each it beats the price of a bullet, primer and powder. I am not a fire former, I form first then fire. To fire form, pull the trigger. Back to the Wilson case gage and useless, I can sort cases by length in thousandths from the head of the case to its shoulder. Back to the belief the Wilson case gage is a chamber gage, the directions/instructions make it very clear, the Wilson case gage is not a chamber gage, the Wilson case gage is designed to be used with fired and minimum length/full length sized cases. My Wilson case gages are datums, I collect datums, I make datums and I purchase datums, a reloader that does not understand datums can pay for their ignorance (ignorance: simply the art of not knowing) not knowing, that is Ok, now wanting to know is to claim the Wilson case gage is useless. Go from useless to helpless, hand a reloader a Wilson cases gage, it is not the gage that is useless, it is the reloader that is helpless, reloaders take short cuts as in knowing nothing about a micrometer to owning one. Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, there is a difference between not knowing and not wanting to know, the Wilson case gage can be used with a straight edge, steel rule, set-up table, depth micrometer or the most common tool found around the reloading bench, the dial caliper, and of course, the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. As I have said, I took a picture of my micrometers and gages, the picture weighed 400 lbs. on appearance a number of micrometers and gages have missing parts, gages and micrometers that appear of be missing parts are designed/depend on the user to furnish the “measure to” the Wilson case gage furnished the “Measure from ‘DATUM’ “ The concept of datum as it applies to measure from to smith and reloaders never had a chance, from the beginning they were told the datum was a line, I claimed the datum was a circle/round hole, needless to say that ran everyone into the curb. there was a king that offered a large portion of his Kingdom to someone that could make what appeared to be an impossible object, problem, the story can not be told in ‘10 words or less'. Again, anyone can purchase a micrometer/gage, I want all the use I can get out of each one, when I evaluate a tool I must be fair and objective, when I critique a tool I must be objective, back to agreeing, if the evaluation is not fair and objective it has no value. Again, I make tools. F. Guffey There is an outside chance someone will reading this thread and be provoked to think, I have been half successful in my effort, now for the thinking part, never be so conceited to think my effort is about you.