How come 1911 autos never took with LEOs in the early to mid 20th century?

[armsmaster270]

In the 60's when I started the Chief made policy & most chief's did not like automatics due to "They always jam" "Their not safe" and much more drivel that stereotyped autos in those days also "We aren't the Army".

[Stevie-Ray]

What about style?

How much more style can you get, than from a 1911? It's the most beautiful design of all time.

[TxShooter474]

The 1911 is being carried by more and more competent LEO's everyday. I can attest to a huge resurgence of the 1911 and many agancies adapting their policies to allow it's carry that had not allowed it before. Even LAPD allows officers in specialized units to carry 1911's. It is perfectly safe to carry "cocked and locked." In fact, it is one of the only semi-automatic handguns I would ever tell someone in law enforcement to carry with the safety activated while on duty.

I carry a 1911 daily on duty and have for years.

[bds32]

I'm not certain why so much training is needed to operate a firearm or shoot it accurately.

I've always been taught and still believe that firearms skills are perishable for those people who carry a firearm for defensive purposes. In gunfights, it's a game of seconds and inches and is Bill Jordan wrote, "there is no second place winner." If you don't practice your draw, your trigger squeeze, your reload, etc., your skills will diminish, even if slightly. That slight difference could decide who wins and who loses. They say Jelly Bryce, famed 20th century lawman and multiple gunfight winner, practiced religiously, allegedly, eight hours at a time in some instances. He died in his sleep of natural causes instead of in an alley, ditch, or dive at the hands of some ne'er-do-well.

[JohnH1963]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

This video clearly demonstrates how a revolver can be tactical. 12 shots on 4 targets in 3 seconds with one reload. LEOs dont need 1911s, they just need to practice with the firearms they have.

[Beans]

FWIW:
In the early 70's the shift Sgt and "we" three patrolman answered a "Burglary in progress" at a local warehouse.

Shift Sgt ---- No prior Military
Me-- USMC retired-- Viet Nam vet --Grunt
Jack K. USA ---Viet Nam vet--11b
George H USN--- Viet Nam vet-- brown water navy

we were issued S&W model 15 with Super Vel ammo. The PD has just upgraded from the S&W HB model 10, 158 gr Lead SWC

The shift Sgt looked at us as were we ready to enter the warehouse and what did he see.

He was armed with his issued S&W 15
*Me------- Colt Satin Chrome Combat Commander in 45 ACP
*Jack K---- Colt Govt model in 45 ACP
*George H--Colt Gold Cup in 45 ACP

* Our S&W's remained holster and we had chosen a handgun we had used before and had confidence in.

The PD allowed us to carry what ever BUG we wanted

The warehouse was empty BG's had already fled.

When *deep concealment is not the most important item I still carry a Colt Commander in .45 ACP

* hot summer days with a "T" shirt and jeans

[AUG]

I have been in or around LE my entire life and the only cops I have ever seen with 1911's were on TV. Mostly Texas Rangers or Pamona PD on cops and a few cops episodes scattered around the southwest.

I love the 1911 but it is forbidden where I work and every other department in the area for duty use.

FWIW I would feel just peachy going 10-08 with a S&W 357mag and not feel undergunned.

My grandfather was a career lawman and carried a 32 Smith revolver. My how things have changed.

When I first started my career the plain clothes guys were issued Sig230's and were the envy of every detective in the region.

There some folks at my dept (mostly females/older guys) that would benefit from shooting a mdl 10 as opposed to the light and whippy 40 SW glocks they are forced to use.

[Powderman]

On the Battlefield a pistol is about worthless and out moded for killing as an effective weapon.

I beg to differ.

For extraordinary heroism while serving as First Sergeant, Weapons Company, 3d Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, Regimental Combat Team 1, 1st Marine Division, I Marine Expeditionary Force, U.S. Marine Corps Forces Central Command in support of Operation IRAQI FREEDOM on 13 November 2004. First Sergeant Kasal was assisting 1st Section, Combined Anti-Armor Platoon as they provided a traveling over watch for 3d Platoon when he heard a large volume of fire erupt to his immediate front, shortly followed by Marines rapidly exiting a structure. When First Sergeant Kasal learned that Marines were pinned down inside the house by an unknown number of enemy personnel, he joined a squad making entry to clear the structure and rescue the Marines inside. He made entry into the first room, immediately encountering and eliminating an enemy insurgent, as he spotted a wounded Marine in the next room. While moving towards the wounded Marine, First Sergeant Kasal and another Marine came under heavy rifle fire from an elevated enemy firing position and were both severely wounded in the legs, immobilizing them. When insurgents threw grenades in an attempt to eliminate the wounded Marines, he rolled on top of his fellow Marine and absorbed the shrapnel with his own body. When First Sergeant Kasal was offered medical attention and extraction, he refused until the other Marines were given medical attention. Although severely wounded himself, he shouted encouragement to his fellow Marines as they continued to clear the structure. By his bold leadership, wise judgment, and complete dedication to duty, First Sergeant Kasal reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest traditions of the Marine Corps and the United States Naval Service.

For this, First Sergeant Kasal (now, Sergeant Major) was awarded the Navy Cross.

Please note what the Sgt Maj has in his hand...



If you can't see it too well, it's known as Pistol, cal. 9x19 NATO, M9.

From an old Army dog, with all respect:

Semper Fidelis, Marine!

[JohnH1963]

I dont think he meant worthless. I think he meant that a pistol is designed to be a defensive weapon. A rifle is for the offense.

If you are using the defensive weapon for the offense then thats like using a butter knife when you should be using a screwdriver. It will work, but its not the best tool for the job.

[Dwight55]

Thanks, Beans, . . . I had to read it a couple of times to figure out what was going on, . . . kept missing the BUG part, . . . now I have tears in my eyes from laughing so hard.

I would sure have loved to have been a fly on the wall watching that come down, . . . the look in the SS's eye would have been like one of those priceless commercials on TV.

May God bless,
Dwight

[dandydany]

You got to be kidding .....I have seen Jerry Miculek in the news too and I'll say why don't you ask him how much time does he spend at the range ???How many round does he shoot in one session ???.....Practice, practice ...and you think that owning a S&W 625 JM will make you a 7th cavalry heheheh....you gotta be kidding. That video shows what the gun is capable of in skilled and trained hand, that's all. The fastest gun alive is Bob Munden, with ANY handgun you choose and at any distances . You can see him in the Reno Nev., area .

[NormOps]

I may have missed it, but I don't think the mechanical state of the early 1911's has been brought up as to why LE who had a choice (some didn't/don't) chose not to carry the 1911.

About half dozen different former military personnel, one of them an armorer, who I have personally talked to or read, has talked about the general loosness and innacuracy of the military 1911.

Apparently they were built loose in order to function reliably when subject to dirt and debris. Secondly, most of them were well used.
Yes, they functioned when needed out to a short range, which is what they were designed to do.
To my knowledge, the 1911 was originally a bit different animal then what we see in the private commercial sector today in terms of fit, finish, and accuracy.

Perhaps this had something to do with the lack of use in those who did not have to carry what they were issued.

Eli W.

[Langenator]

I carried a 1911 in the Marine Corps as an MP. Most units were transitioning over to the Beretta by then but not base MP's. They made us carry that thing, empty chamber, hammer forward with only five rounds in the magazine. I don't think they trusted 19 year olds with a badge and a single action auto with one in the pipe.

Actually, they still don't...my wife was an MP at Fort Bragg, and they carry in what the Army calls Condition Amber (loaded magazine inserted, no round chambered for mag fed weapons, slightly different for belt-fed).

Both of us carry (her is a Kimber Ultra Carry, mine's a Sig 229), and her first time on patrol, she chambered a round and holstered her pistol, then realized the Sgt was looking at her funny.

[AUG]

Speaking of wierd military nonsense a friend of mine was an MP(national guard) for a few weeks in Haiti.

He told me they were forced to "patrol" the streets with a M16 with no ammo or magazines whatsoever. The rifles were even equipped with some sort of muzzle device to display to the world the rifles were not able to be fired. He told me while on a certain post he was given a M9 with three 15rnd magazines ....... and 10 rounds of ammo.

The military has some really stupid ways of handling small arms.

[OldCorp]

I started in 1980. At the time, my dept. used Colt Troopers and Trooper Mk III's. Ammo was S&W brand .38 +p 110 and 125 JHP's
I distinctly recall in the academy some of the archaic ideas associated with the choice of weapon and ammo : 1. The '45' is 'too much' for LE work, it's overkill.
2. We use +p 38's 'cause if you get shot with your own revolver in a struggle, and you're wearing body armour, you won't get hurt as bad.

Even then, I thought that all sounded stupid, but it was best to keep your mouth shut.

A few years later the duty weapon was changed to the S&W M66, still with +p .38's, the duty round changing to either the Federal or R-P 125 JHP.
Some guys I worked with could not tell you what was carried, only that there was 'bullets' in the gun. At that time the M66 was in short supply in stores and was considered cutting edge. I shot the daylights out of mine and still have it. It has a PD case number engraved on the butt fom where it was used in a deadly force encounter I was involved in in 1982. That gun saved my hide.
1990 - we went to the S&W M1076 'cause it was the new FBI gun. It turned out to be a good choice and was used for ~10 years. Ammo costs drove the dept. away from it to the S&W M4566 .45 ACP, which is what I retired with.

Last I heard that model was about to go away and replaced with the M&P .45, that is until the economy went south and now that's all on hold.

[DrLaw]

Because.

Just because.

Had a fellow officer come to me one time and he said he could not get his revolver open. Turned out it was rusted shut. Never took it out of the holster to clean it following snow or rain. When I finally opened it, the cases were green and the lead cloudy. Action was almost rusted shut. I finally got that working, too. It was an older S&W M&P Model 10 6" blued. Just imagine if he had had a 1911! This was a small department where the training was, "Here is your gun, coat, shirt, pants, belt, holster and badge. Now go to work."

In the older days it was all training, or the lack of it. (see above) A revolver could be trusted (for the most part) to shoot every time. There was no impression that it would jam (impressions played a big role). When I started as a copper, there were only two choices mandated by the chief's of departments I worked for. Colt or Smith & Wesson. The Dept's would furnish S&W because they could get the M&P or Combat Masterpiece cheaper. Want a Colt or .357? Buy it yourself.

Besides, WE ALL KNOW those Colts jam every time you shoot them!

The Doc is out now.

[David Armstrong]

This video clearly demonstrates how a revolver can be tactical. 12 shots on 4 targets in 3 seconds with one reload. LEOs dont need 1911s, they just need to practice with the firearms they have.

Sorry, but using what is possibly the best revolver shooter in the world can do in order to support an argument really isn't much support.

[armsmaster270]

To Jerry shooting is his full time job.
When my unit was sent to L.A. for the Rodney King Riots we were on the streets without ammo in our M-16's until it was leaked to the press then policy changed and the leaker was Court Marshaled.