Info On Enfiield?

Vukota12 · August 11, 2012, 09:22 PM

Hey all, I'm new here so please, be gentle!

1962 No1 MK3

I picked it up at a show recently and wanted to get some more info. Here are some pictures of the markings I am able to see without taking it apart. I have done a little bit of research and reading, but I prefer the opinions/knowledge of "regular people" in the firearms community. Any information you could provide would be great, especially value. Thanks if you can help!

tater134 · August 11, 2012, 09:48 PM

Well first off I would not shoot that rifle with that bolt since its marked DP for " Drill Purpose". Are there any other DP markings anywhere else on the rifle? On top of the chamber or the receiver ring?

James K · August 11, 2012, 10:18 PM

Unless you can determine exactly what about that rifle cause the DP designation, do not fire it. DP does not necessarily mean the rifle is unsafe. It could mean that it is obsolete, or has obsolete parts, or has a shot out barrel, or is made for non-standard or obsolete ammunition. But until you know, best not to take a chance. If you must fire it, do so in a safe manner.

That rifle is a Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield, aka a Rifle No. 1 Mk 3* made at Rifle Factory Ishapore in 1962. It is in .303 British and is identical except for markings to the British Rifle No. 1 Mk III. Ishapore rifles are well made and have a good collector value among those who collect British Empire weapons. Later on, Ishapore modified the Rifle No. 1 and produced their own Rifle No. 2, made for the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge, for paramililtary units (the Indian army was armed with the Ishapore-made FAL in that caliber).

The inspection and proof marks read "GRI" for "Georgius Rex Imperator" or George, King and Emperor, instead of just "GR" for "Georgius Rex", or King George. Actually, those stamps were long obsolete in 1962. Not only had India become independent in 1947, but George VI had died in 1952; apparently the Indians were in no hurry to change the stamps.

Jim

Vukota12 · August 11, 2012, 10:18 PM

No, there are no other DP markings.

Vukota12 · August 11, 2012, 10:21 PM

Thanks for the response, Jim. The info is much appreciated!

James K · August 11, 2012, 10:27 PM

A FWIW on DP. Many of the U.S. Model 1917 rifles sent to England prior to WWII (and prior to Lend Lease - FDR played games with "neutrality") came back marked "DP" solely because the caliber was not the standard British .303. Several people I know, including me, fired them and never found any problems.

Jim

Vukota12 · August 11, 2012, 10:43 PM

Quote:

A FWIW on DP. Many of the U.S. Model 1917 rifles sent to England prior to WWII (and prior to Lend Lease - FDR played games with "neutrality") came back marked "DP" solely because the caliber was not the standard British .303. Several people I know, including me, fired them and never found any problems.

I've done a lot of reading on the "DP" marking and opinions seem to be all over the place in regards to why, when and/or by who they were marked by.

For the record I did have it looked at before firing. I have only out about 10 rounds through it but have not had any issues or cause for concern.

tater134 · August 12, 2012, 07:01 AM

Does the bolt serial number match the rifle? If not then I'd say to just get a new bolt and keep shooting it. Someone may have just thrown a DP bolt it a perfectly good gun. Usually when a rifle was marked for Drill Purpose they marked almost every part so there was no question that it shouldn't be fired.

mapsjanhere · August 12, 2012, 07:49 AM

With that lacquered finish and the mix and match stamps I get the feeling this gun was born out of a parts crate.

F. Guffey · August 12, 2012, 08:29 AM

DP and the P14, I purchased 5 for $50.00 each, all had a hole drilled through the stock and into the barrel (and out the other side), every component as in receiver, barrel, bolt, trigger guard and band had its own little 'DP' stamp, I purchased the rifles for parts. There is nothing suspect about the parts, there was nothing wrong with the rifle before the barrels were drilled. I have a 308 Norma Mag with a bolt stamped DP, I am building a couple of bench rest types, one will have a DP bolt the other has a M1917 Winchester bolt with the face opened up.

Complete with the red and white band around the receiver, I have a P14 DP rifle with a M1917 30/06 barrel and bolt with all the changes to the bottom of the receiver and magazine.

When the rifle was stamped DP the person doing the stamping was thorough, if the rifle did not have a problem they gave it a problem such as welding and plugging and welding.

F. Guffey

wogpotter · August 12, 2012, 08:40 AM

You have an Indian made (not british) Rifle #1 Mk3* aka Short Model Lee-Enfield, or SMELLIE, made in 1965 at the Rifle Factory, Ishapore.

At some point it was relegated to Drill Purposes (ONLY) my italics.

It should be checked by an experienced smith familiar with Indian-made Lee-Enfield rifles & the history of them before firing to determine exactly what, if anything, was done to it to render it Drill Purposes (ONLY).

Tidewater_Kid · August 12, 2012, 09:54 AM

I saw several DP marked rifles at a gun show recently being sold as shooters. That had a hole drilled through the chamber and would greatly injure someone trying to fire them with live ammo. Century Arms was selling these for $89 a short while back. Take the wood off and and take some more pictures of the top, bottom and side of the chamber area. Also take some pictures of the end of the bolt.

TK

gyvel · August 12, 2012, 11:39 AM

"GRI" stamps and a 1962 date tell me that this Ishapore is an older gun ( the reciever, at least) that went through repair/refurbishment in 1962.

As was pointed out earlier, some "DP" guns, while otherwise mechanically OK, had shot out bores, etc., and that bolt was probably slapped in your gun by someone, somewhere.

At any rate, I would follow the advice of the others and take it to someone familiar with Lee-Enfields and have it thoroughly checked out.

Also, it looks as though someone sanded the stock and then went a little overboard with the polyurethane.

James K · August 12, 2012, 01:37 PM

Good possibility. I thought that the rebuild date would be beside the Factory Repair (FR) marking, but the idea that 1962 is the FR date would make more sense than my thought that they were still using "GRI" stamps that late.

Jim

Vukota12 · August 12, 2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Take the wood off and and take some more pictures of the top, bottom and side of the chamber area. Also take some pictures of the end of the bolt.

Thank you all for your responses and insight. Here are more pictures as asked for above. And in response to "tater134", no the bolt does not match. Also would anyone have a general price for this rifle?

wogpotter · August 12, 2012, 04:27 PM

Sorry, I forgot this earlier.
FR is thought by some to mean "Factory Repair", or "Factory Rebuilt" considered to be the equivalent to a British "FTR", others dispute this however.

tater134 · August 12, 2012, 06:49 PM

Since the bolt doesn't match and there are no other DP marks on the rifle I would bet money that someone just put a DP bolt in it to replace the original. If it were mine I'd pick up a new bolt, check the headspace, and shoot it

Tidewater_Kid · August 12, 2012, 07:45 PM

It does look normal. If you have a gunsmith to take it to, I would do that. If you do decide to shoot it I would recommend a string and some distance.

TK

James K · August 12, 2012, 09:46 PM

Hi, wogpotter,

What do the "others" say it means? I have never seen anything but "factory repair", a shortening of "factory thorough repair" or FTR used by the British.

Jim

tahunua001 · August 13, 2012, 12:16 AM

well it's an indian enfield with a non matching bolt, probably somewhere in the $250 area unless there is something about the Ishapores that drives up the pricing but unless it was done in 7.62 nato(which I'm assuming is not the case here) there is nothing special or rare about it.

wogpotter · August 13, 2012, 07:32 AM

Hi, James. They think its some kind of makers mark thing. The thoery is that some rifles with the mark don't seem to have had any work done to them, so the mark must mean something other than Factory Repair.

madcratebuilder · August 13, 2012, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gyvel

"GRI" stamps and a 1962 date tell me that this Ishapore is an older gun ( the reciever, at least) that went through repair/refurbishment in 1962.

I don't think. The wrist stamping is identical to my 1962 RFI that has not been through FR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimK

I have never seen anything but "factory repair", a shortening of "factory thorough repair" or FTR used by the British.

I have always believed it to be "Factory Repair" a short version of the British FTR. The Skennerton books call it this, I think the Stratton books do to.

gyvel · August 14, 2012, 09:06 PM

Quote:

I don't think. The wrist stamping is identical to my 1962 RFI that has not been through FR.

Does your gun also have "GRI" acceptance stamps on the receiver?

madcratebuilder · August 15, 2012, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Does your gun also have "GRI" acceptance stamps on the receiver?

No. It's a 1962 production, RFI, as are all post 1948 Ishapore rifles.

The OP's No1 has RFI on the buttsocket. This is a post-1948 rifle. The 1962 date looks legit to me. We most be looking at two different rifles. The first photo clearly shows a RFI identification mark. I'm not seeing any GRI marking on the buttsocket.

For those new to the LE, we are talking about the buttsocket stamp, RFI or GRI.

Quote:

Military rifles manufactured at Ishapore pre-1949 are stamped "GRI" on the buttsocket, referring to George Rex, Imperator (i.e. King George VI, last Emperor of India), whilst military rifles manufactured post-1948 are stamped "RFI", which stands for Rifle Factory, Ishapore.

wogpotter · August 15, 2012, 12:02 PM

The rifle has "RFI" on the socket. I think someone's confusing where the stamp is, there seems to be a "GRI" stamp on what looks like the breech end of the barrel. (5th image down in the original set)

August 12, 2012, 07:49 AM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	With that lacquered finish and the mix and match stamps I get the feeling this gun was born out of a parts crate. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

August 12, 2012, 08:40 AM	#11
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	You have an Indian made (not british) Rifle #1 Mk3* aka Short Model Lee-Enfield, or SMELLIE, made in 1965 at the Rifle Factory, Ishapore. At some point it was relegated to Drill Purposes (ONLY) my italics. It should be checked by an experienced smith familiar with Indian-made Lee-Enfield rifles & the history of them before firing to determine exactly what, if anything, was done to it to render it Drill Purposes (ONLY). __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

August 12, 2012, 04:27 PM	#16
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Sorry, I forgot this earlier. FR is thought by some to mean "Factory Repair", or "Factory Rebuilt" considered to be the equivalent to a British "FTR", others dispute this however. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

August 13, 2012, 12:16 AM	#20
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	well it's an indian enfield with a non matching bolt, probably somewhere in the $250 area unless there is something about the Ishapores that drives up the pricing but unless it was done in 7.62 nato(which I'm assuming is not the case here) there is nothing special or rare about it. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

August 13, 2012, 07:32 AM	#21
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	Hi, James. They think its some kind of makers mark thing. The thoery is that some rifles with the mark don't seem to have had any work done to them, so the mark must mean something other than Factory Repair. __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”

August 11, 2012, 09:22 PM	#1
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	Info On Enfiield? Hey all, I'm new here so please, be gentle! 1962 No1 MK3 I picked it up at a show recently and wanted to get some more info. Here are some pictures of the markings I am able to see without taking it apart. I have done a little bit of research and reading, but I prefer the opinions/knowledge of "regular people" in the firearms community. Any information you could provide would be great, especially value. Thanks if you can help!

August 11, 2012, 09:48 PM	#2
tater134 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: NE,PA Posts: 390	Well first off I would not shoot that rifle with that bolt since its marked DP for " Drill Purpose". Are there any other DP markings anywhere else on the rifle? On top of the chamber or the receiver ring?

August 11, 2012, 10:18 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Unless you can determine exactly what about that rifle cause the DP designation, do not fire it. DP does not necessarily mean the rifle is unsafe. It could mean that it is obsolete, or has obsolete parts, or has a shot out barrel, or is made for non-standard or obsolete ammunition. But until you know, best not to take a chance. If you must fire it, do so in a safe manner. That rifle is a Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield, aka a Rifle No. 1 Mk 3* made at Rifle Factory Ishapore in 1962. It is in .303 British and is identical except for markings to the British Rifle No. 1 Mk III. Ishapore rifles are well made and have a good collector value among those who collect British Empire weapons. Later on, Ishapore modified the Rifle No. 1 and produced their own Rifle No. 2, made for the 7.62x51 NATO cartridge, for paramililtary units (the Indian army was armed with the Ishapore-made FAL in that caliber). The inspection and proof marks read "GRI" for "Georgius Rex Imperator" or George, King and Emperor, instead of just "GR" for "Georgius Rex", or King George. Actually, those stamps were long obsolete in 1962. Not only had India become independent in 1947, but George VI had died in 1952; apparently the Indians were in no hurry to change the stamps. Jim

August 11, 2012, 10:21 PM	#5
Vukota12 Junior Member Join Date: August 11, 2012 Posts: 13	Thanks for the response, Jim. The info is much appreciated!

August 11, 2012, 10:27 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	A FWIW on DP. Many of the U.S. Model 1917 rifles sent to England prior to WWII (and prior to Lend Lease - FDR played games with "neutrality") came back marked "DP" solely because the caliber was not the standard British .303. Several people I know, including me, fired them and never found any problems. Jim

August 12, 2012, 07:01 AM	#8
tater134 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: NE,PA Posts: 390	Does the bolt serial number match the rifle? If not then I'd say to just get a new bolt and keep shooting it. Someone may have just thrown a DP bolt it a perfectly good gun. Usually when a rifle was marked for Drill Purpose they marked almost every part so there was no question that it shouldn't be fired.

August 12, 2012, 08:29 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	DP and the P14, I purchased 5 for $50.00 each, all had a hole drilled through the stock and into the barrel (and out the other side), every component as in receiver, barrel, bolt, trigger guard and band had its own little 'DP' stamp, I purchased the rifles for parts. There is nothing suspect about the parts, there was nothing wrong with the rifle before the barrels were drilled. I have a 308 Norma Mag with a bolt stamped DP, I am building a couple of bench rest types, one will have a DP bolt the other has a M1917 Winchester bolt with the face opened up. Complete with the red and white band around the receiver, I have a P14 DP rifle with a M1917 30/06 barrel and bolt with all the changes to the bottom of the receiver and magazine. When the rifle was stamped DP the person doing the stamping was thorough, if the rifle did not have a problem they gave it a problem such as welding and plugging and welding. F. Guffey

August 12, 2012, 09:54 AM	#12
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I saw several DP marked rifles at a gun show recently being sold as shooters. That had a hole drilled through the chamber and would greatly injure someone trying to fire them with live ammo. Century Arms was selling these for $89 a short while back. Take the wood off and and take some more pictures of the top, bottom and side of the chamber area. Also take some pictures of the end of the bolt. TK

August 12, 2012, 11:39 AM	#13
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	"GRI" stamps and a 1962 date tell me that this Ishapore is an older gun ( the reciever, at least) that went through repair/refurbishment in 1962. As was pointed out earlier, some "DP" guns, while otherwise mechanically OK, had shot out bores, etc., and that bolt was probably slapped in your gun by someone, somewhere. At any rate, I would follow the advice of the others and take it to someone familiar with Lee-Enfields and have it thoroughly checked out. Also, it looks as though someone sanded the stock and then went a little overboard with the polyurethane.

August 12, 2012, 01:37 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Good possibility. I thought that the rebuild date would be beside the Factory Repair (FR) marking, but the idea that 1962 is the FR date would make more sense than my thought that they were still using "GRI" stamps that late. Jim

August 12, 2012, 06:49 PM	#17
tater134 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: NE,PA Posts: 390	Since the bolt doesn't match and there are no other DP marks on the rifle I would bet money that someone just put a DP bolt in it to replace the original. If it were mine I'd pick up a new bolt, check the headspace, and shoot it

August 12, 2012, 07:45 PM	#18
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	It does look normal. If you have a gunsmith to take it to, I would do that. If you do decide to shoot it I would recommend a string and some distance. TK

August 12, 2012, 09:46 PM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, wogpotter, What do the "others" say it means? I have never seen anything but "factory repair", a shortening of "factory thorough repair" or FTR used by the British. Jim

August 15, 2012, 12:02 PM	#25
wogpotter Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2004 Posts: 4,811	The rifle has "RFI" on the socket. I think someone's confusing where the stamp is, there seems to be a "GRI" stamp on what looks like the breech end of the barrel. (5th image down in the original set) __________________ Allan Quatermain: “Automatic rifles. Who in God's name has automatic rifles”? Elderly Hunter: “That's dashed unsporting. Probably Belgium.”