Improving the trigger on Sig 1911... I need help

[mellow_c]

I recently purchased a Sig 1911 Scorpion. I'm very happy with it but the trigger is just a little heavy for my tastes. I've never taken down a 1911 of any sort beyond field stripped.

I'd like to do this myself. Should I be looking at polishing stones? If so what kinds? And what the heck would I be polishing??? I don't have a clue. I'm looking forward to diving on in once I have enough information.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Do you have a trigger pull gauge to measure the weight? If so, how much is it now?

Stoning the sear and hammer will most assuredly help, however, doing it correctly, so that it has a positive sear engagement, and remain safe, is the main point.

[DT Guy]

If the pull is currently crisp and devoid of creep, I'd tweak the sear spring first; modify cheap parts before expensive parts.

As a VERY general rule, "springs = pull weight, interface surfaces (sear and hammer hooks) = pull quality."


Larry

[g.willikers]

You do realize a badly done trigger modification can make for a very dangerous gun.
No?
What's next, an attempt at brain surgery?

[Scorch]

Rather than dinking with something you don't understand, take it to a gunsmith. If you just gotta dink with it, buy a Cylinder & Slide hammer/sear kit and install that.

[mellow_c]

1: I don't have a trigger pull gauge, so I'm not sure where it's at.

2: there is just a tinny little bit of slip right before the break, hardly noticeable.

3: my intent is to do a good job after collecting enough information on how to get the trigger where I would like it to be. I want it to break a little cleaner and lighter. Not much. Lets say it's breaking at 5 lbs now, I'd be happy with 4 or a tad less... and it shouldn't hurt to polish connecting surfaces as long as I keep things straight and don't mess it up. I am a patient person and will be sure to take my time to do it right. After all, it's not brain surgery

4: the point of this is for me to learn the inner workings of a 1911 and slightly improve the trigger while I'm at it. A bonding experience if you will.


Does anyone have some links or specific tips or products I should start to consider... I really need a comprehensive guide on how all the parts come apart, relate to each other, and how changing, polishing them or otherwise modifying them will affect the total outcome.

Again, I wish to use this experience to advance my knowledge of the 1911 platform, slightly improve the trigger, and bond with the pistol

How bout it?

PS. I have considered searching through Google for hour and hours trying to piece together a general idea, but I thought I'd send out a request for assistance to all my friends here on TFL. I believe you guys can help lead me down the right path.

[tangolima]

You haven't detail stripped a 1911 before, and now you are set to do a trigger job? I wouldn't if I were you. I did trigger jobs of all sorts. But that is after a lot of time self teaching myself and practicing. Not to discourage you, but it is what it is. Safety shouldn't be taken lightly.

-TL

[RickB]

Go to Brownells website, and look for a gunsmithing article called something like "Poor Man's Trigger Job", by gunsmith Jack Weigand.
I have followed all the steps that DID NOT involve messing with mating surfaces of the hammer and sear, and have smooth, crisp, 3.5#-4.0# triggers in all of my guns as a result.
I know people who have ruined sears trying to cut and polish new angles on them, or over-cut the hammer hooks, so I've left those surfaces alone, and concentrated on making everything smooth, and as friction-free as possible.
As long as you leave those surfaces alone, you probably can't hurt anything.
Definitely familiarize yourself with how the gun works, before diving in.
You might be able to tweak a half-pound or more out of the pull weight just by carefully tweaking the sear spring (as described in the article), and that alone might be a good place to start.

[mellow_c]

Safety should not be taken lightly. But my friends, there is a first time for everything! Disassembling cleaning and resembling a 1911 has nothing to do with changing/modifying springs or with removing/polishing metal correctly. I am sure fully taking down a 1911 will be easy. I have no problem following instructions, and my pride is easily set aside to make room for common sense. I will not let the fear of doing something wrong stop me from trying to do something right!

I will learn what all the parts do, how they relate, what can be done to them to improve smooth function, what to use as tools to do so, and what NOT to do such as removing too much material or changing angles.

I swear, I wasn't born yesterday I want to learn about this so I can do it the right way and end up with good results that will remain functional, safe, and that I can be proud off.

Thanks to Dixie, DT Guy, and RickB for the tips...

I'd love some more tips, links, or instruction if anyone has them. I'm sure I'll be spending months gathering info before I even take the thing apart.

I'll be sure to figure out a trigger pull gauge so I can offer up some before and after numbers to those who would like to know.

[phudd]

Tweaking the sear spring is easy and reversable

[DnPRK]

Youtube has several videos about 1911 detail strip and reassembly.

[mellow_c]

Looks like Brownells sells some sort of 1911 trigger job kit with the jig and stones needed. At this point I've watched about 3 hours of instructional videos. I'm starting to get the idea. It actually looks pretty straight forward. One just has to be careful and pay close attention.

I'll consider it. First I'll do a full take down of the gun and inspect everything to gain some first hand familiarity. It would probably be cheaper to have a smith do it for me... but I hate the idea of a guy I don't know working on my gun. I'm also very interested in doing the work myself.

Right now I only have one 1911 that I would want to do a trigger job on, and I'd have to do it to at least two to get my moneys worth from one of those kits.

Maybe I'll do like some of you have suggested by tweaking the sear spring a tad and if I feel the need I might try smoothing some things out and avoiding the mating surfaces of the hammer and sear.

Thanks again to everyone for the tips... I'm looking forward to becoming more familiar with this legendary design!

[WVsig]

IMHO before you change anything you need to get a trigger gauge and determine what the pull weight really is. If you have not put it on a scale how can you know what you really have. One has to ask how many round have you shot out of this pistol? I would get a gauge and some ammo and simply shoot the gun. After 500+ rounds then you are ready to make a educated assessment of what to do to the pistol. Again IMHO.

If you have not field stripped a 1911 you are no where near ready to mess with any of the surfaces or angles on the trigger parts. "Keeping it straight" is not as easy as you think. While it might not be brain surgery it is harder than you think. If your trigger is not smooth but breaks clean I would focus on the trigger track and trigger bow. Then move to disconnector surface where it meets the trigger bow and hammer hooks. This way you are not changing any angles.

The 1911 is the most buggered pistol in the world because everyone expects it no matter what the price point to have a perfect smooth 4lb or under trigger right out of the box. You Sig ships with a 4.5 to 5.5 trigger which IMHO is about right.

You can tweak the sear spring but remember that too much and you can introduce hammer follow. Make sure you know how to safety check the pistol after you work with the sear spring. I would get a stock Colt spring just in case you over do it. Often if you work the spring too much it can be permanently damaged. Springs are cheap when compared to your safety and safety of others.

If you want to really work on and tweak your own pistol properly and not "Bubba" the gun then get the Kuhnhausen manuals and read them.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/199...rry-kuhnhausen

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/193...rry-kuhnhausen

This is why there are more paper weight 1911s in the used market than any other gun. Not to be too harsh but everyone and their brother thinks they can watch a youtube video and turn their 1911 into a race gun.

If you do choose to move forward I would be prepared to replace parts which maybe "Bubba'd". This would include hammer, sear, sear spring etc... If you are willing to pay to replace these parts and the learning aspect of the exercise is important to you then I would go for it but if you only have 1 1911 and don't intend to buy a lot more and do your own work I recommend taking it to a competent gun smith.

[g.willikers]

Don't forget the 1911 clinic on the subject at THR:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=61238

[mellow_c]

My Sig has a flat trigger face, and after shooting a lot of rounds you can feel that there is less surface area contacting your finger than with a curved trigger. In a strange way it gives the illusion of a heavier pull, either that or it seems to fatigue the contact point on your trigger finger faster, or both.

I will get a gauge soon.

I would like the trigger to be lighter more than anything. I have a Dan Wesson Valor and the trigger on it is perfect for my tastes. The Sig is a long way from the Valor, and I don't actually want it to be as light as the Valor. I've only put about 200 rounds through the Sig, but there were times shooting it that I would have expected the trigger to break and I had to keep putting more pressure on it. I also have a RIA 9mm GI and I feel like it has a lighter trigger pull from the factory than the Sig! The Sig needs some work... not a lot, but some.

As I said, the cost of getting everything I need to do a full trigger job is probably not worth it, and I don't want it to be much lighter. That's were just a little bending of the sear spring and a little smoothing out of mating surfaces while leaving the hammer and sear alone will probably give me the results I'm looking for.

I've shot a few race guns with claimed 1&2 lbs triggers and I didn't like them! I could see having a trigger like that on a bolt gun, but not a pistol, not for me anyway.

And for the record... I know you guys are really trying to hammer home the point of safety and not messing up parts. I appreciate your concern and expression of caution. I promise not to mess this up

Also thanks for the links to the kuhnuausen manuals and thehighroad forum thread!

[Nathan]

Ok, I know your pain. If you are quite competent mechanically, have a good understanding of "The way things work", can read technical manuals to an incredible detail and apply those skills, you can probably pull this off.

First buy and devour the Kuhnhausen manuals and read vol 1 in full....heck, read them both!

Then buy the white & black synthetic stones(and other stones to polish the frame) and the Powers Jig at Brownells. ....plus all the assy and disassy tools you desire.

Buy quality internal parts, so your effort isn't wasted and so your parts aren't modified.

Then begin your work. The quality parts should almost be perfect to start. They may need some work.

Creep is movement of the sear against the hammer hook. It is a feeling. A creepy pull is where static friction is lower than drag points(roughness) when releasing the sear. No creep is where static friction is higher than sliding friction. Static friction is mostly determined by spring weights. Lowering spring weights makes roughness more feelable. Notice engagement is the same.

Shortening engagement helps reduce hammer/sear/trigger movement during pull. This seems good, but less engagement is less safe. Many aftermarket hammer hooks are significantly shortened from spec already. Increasing sear relief angle puts more stress on the sear nose and will wear the sear nose more.

So, first, I would think this through a bit. I have like $200+ in tools. I've done 3 trigger jobs....I'm still in the hole!

Still, it is fun. Last, know how to absolutely test all of your safety functions and look at your jig work under 8x min for quality. Even cutting by jig can sometimes not be perfect!

[mellow_c]

Thanks Nathan,
Well, I decided to strip the gun completely today... but I didn't get very far. I removed the grips and then tried to remove the thumb safetys. I followed a disassembly vid on youtube for the Sig 1911. I could not get the thumb safetys off!!! Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmBYiWKJ70

I tried for a good 10 min with no success. It should be pretty simple but nope, couldn't get it.

I ended up just removing the mainspring housing and pulling out the sear spring. I held it at the bottom and bent the middle spring back by using a finger on top. I bent it just far enough that I could see it had changed it's resting position a little but not very much. After some more fiddling with it I managed to get it back in it's proper position and the put the mainspring housing back on. I tested all the safeties and everything is good.

Reassembled the whole gun and the trigger does feel a little lighter, but not much.

I'm still confused about why I couldn't remove the manual safety.

[WVsig]

Thanks Nathan,
Well, I decided to strip the gun completely today... but I didn't get very far. I removed the grips and then tried to remove the thumb safetys. I followed a disassembly vid on youtube for the Sig 1911. I could not get the thumb safetys off!!! Ha!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vmBYiWKJ70

I tried for a good 10 min with no success. It should be pretty simple but nope, couldn't get it.

I ended up just removing the mainspring housing and pulling out the sear spring. I held it at the bottom and bent the middle spring back by using a finger on top. I bent it just far enough that I could see it had changed it's resting position a little but not very much. After some more fiddling with it I managed to get it back in it's proper position and the put the mainspring housing back on. I tested all the safeties and everything is good.

Reassembled the whole gun and the trigger does feel a little lighter, but not much.

I'm still confused about why I couldn't remove the manual safety.

Cant tell you for sure without looking at and holding the pistol but I would assume that it simply requires more force than you are using. Is the thumb safety a bit tight in general? IIRC the Sig thumb safety is a pretty standard 191 part not like the extractor.

[tangolima]

OK again I don't mean any disrespect or discouragement. There is first time for everything, but there are also steps to do everything right. You vowed to follow the instructions to the letters, but when when things didn't work out, you just jumped the step. I wouldn't think it was prudent.

It is considered a no no to take apart the main spring without taking out the safety first. There is a possibility, although remote, the internal mechanism could get so royally jammed up that the only way to undo it is to cut.

Try putting the safety between on and off then wiggle while pulling. It is the only position it will come out.

The sear-hammer engagement is the last safe guard to keep the gun safe. Be very careful when you modify it. It is way more important to know how to check for malfunction than to do it. You are solely responsible for what your gun does, as you weren't born yesterday.

-TL

[g.willikers]

Wiggle up and down like crazy and pull hard.
Some of them like being where they are.

[RickB]

I wouldn't follow the instructions in that video.
The weak link in ambi safeties is the tongue/groove joint connecting the halves, and wiggling one side - torqueing it back and forth - is putting more wear on the joint than necessary.
When I'm separating the halves, I try to get a thin knife blade between the frame and the safety, as close to the pivot point as possible, and pry it straight out, so you're not applying any twisting or bending force on the pin.
A piece of newsprint protects the finish.

[mellow_c]

WVsig... the safety feels normal when flicking it on and off.

tangolima... I'll admit, I didn't think too far ahead when I skipped removing the safety and whent straight to removing the mainspring, it's housing, and the leaf spring/sear spring. But it did work, and I got to see first hand where everything fits. I've tripple checked the gun and it's functioning correctly.

tangolima, g. willies, RickB.... I was primarily working on getting the safety out with it between the safe and fire positions, I was working on the left side (non ejection side), I gave it everything I had, even used a small flat blade to pry a little until I decided I was going to end up gouging something if I were to keep going.

Using some magazine or news paper with a thin knife blade might be the ticket.

I'd really like to take it all down just for the sake of doing so, but at this point I might wait till I've shot another 500 rounds from it so my excuse can be to do a full disassembly and cleaning. Maybe then I'll be able to get the safety free and I can tweak the spring a bit more and see about smoothing some things out while leaving the sear and hammer alone. If for some reason I just can't get the safety off, I'll just leave it alone and wont mess around by skipping steps.

I'll probably buy some stones eventually though. There are countless occasions that I wish I had some nice polishing stones to smooth out internal surfaces on various firearms.

I'd like you all to know, I am enjoying myself and I appreciate all the advice! It reminds me of when I finally fully disassembled a Glock and got to see how it all works. The 1911 is a very cool design! I'm not sure if I'll ever mess around with the internals of a revolver! Well I take that back... I've taken apart a couple Rugers and they were pretty simple, but i didn't mess with them too much. Thank God for the internet... I don't think my library would have the info I'm looking for and I'd be stuck buying books to tell me how to fully disassembled each gun I own. I guess that wouldn't be so bad actually.

[riflemen]

OK, I didn't read all the replies so if someone already said this I apologise..

the 1911 trigger is a finicky b!tch, and doing it wrong can be super unsafe or if you aren't too unlucky it will just be expensive...

I had 2 scorpions {bought twins when they first came out}, after a while I sent one to my smith with some parts I bought for it, a black trigger, hammer, and ambi safety.. He did a trigger job, some polishing, installed my parts, and flush cut and crowned the barrel, cost me $250 parts and labor total.. I sld that gun after shooting it about 800 times for $1300 {that was more than it cost me}!!!

Sometimes its not worth playing with them your self, if you want a gun to play with internally buy a used carry gun and go to town. That is how I learned how 1911's worked, I bought a used springfield carry/range gun {5000 rnds through it} for $250, all scratched to death.. I fit a kart barrel, a bunch of wilson parts, and then after shooting it for a while I sent it for cerakote, sold that gun for more than it cost me too, lol, but if I am being honest, my trigger job was not as nice as the one my smith did on any of my 1911's...

[Koda94]

maybe this article will help...
http://www.realguns.com/archives/151.htm