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September 21, 2006, 09:13 PM | #1 | ||||||||
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Join Date: November 12, 2004
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On, "What would you do if robbed", part XIX
Because of the two rather spirited threads on the theme of "what would you do if robbed", I decided to do an informal survey of other gun forums. This subject is interesting to me because after years of not CCWing, I've decided to start carrying again.
And I'm amazed that there is so little consensus re how to respond during an armed robbery. So I posed an hypothetical situation as follows: Quote:
I also realize that my bad guy might not be the norm. My bad guy sounds like a pro. I doubt the majority of stick-up men are professionals. Probably just addicts. The vast majority of responses insisted that compliance is the only course. Some who insisted compliance (in the above scenario) I've quoted below because they were made by individuals who seemed/stated that they had had some kind of advanced combat training. Quote:
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The following individual has these credentials: - U.S. Army Ranger, albeit a long time ago... - Numerous handgun courses at Firearms Academy of Seattle - Currently qualify annually with the Department of Energy with handgun He said, Quote:
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September 21, 2006, 09:14 PM | #2 | ||||||
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Next section:
However, there did seem to be a common tactic among the responses that advocated aggressive action. They said to drop/throw the wallet in such a way as to distract the gunman then pull your weapon and fire until the threat is removed. It would seem you a) throw your wallet on the ground away from the perp, b) when the perp takes his eyes off you to follow the wallet you c) draw and commence firing. In terms of an aggressive course of action, this was the commonest.
One poster however, gave a real life instance of someone, highly trained, who fought back and died. Quote:
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Here's someone who responded to the Kray Maga advice: Quote:
I liked this post since it gave me a benchmark of reaction time as well as a practical experiment. Quote:
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My CCW setup is all wrong. I've got too many rigs/prospective rigs. If I carry a J frame revolver in a pocket holster on Monday, a 1911 with thumb break holster on Tuesday, and a Glock 17 in a cross draw on Wednesday, then when I get held up on Thursday, I'm not going to know what I've got or where I've got it. I need to select one appropriate rig and stick with it. I've got to get a phony wallet, put some documents in it, a little cash, fake cards, etc. If I'm held up, throw him the fake. If he takes his eyes off me, draw and fire. If he keeps me in his field of vision, I guess I just gave him a used wallet with a few bucks. Keep training scenarios to a minimum. Keep it as simple as possible so there's less to remember. Am I forgetting anything? |
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September 21, 2006, 09:25 PM | #3 | |
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Late entry.
This gentleman posted the following.
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I'll have to study that last statement. BTW, the gentleman who posted that is from here: http://www.spreadfirearms.com/ These are his credentials: Spreadfire Arms Austin, TX FFL/SOT email: spreadfirearms*REMOVETHIS*@hotmail.com Blackwater USA Executive Protection School Graduate Bushmaster/Blackwater USA Certified Armorer Glock Certified Armorer Mossberg Certified Armorer Remington Law Enforcement Certified Armorer Texas Concealed Handgun License Instructor |
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September 22, 2006, 12:05 AM | #4 |
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Location: DFW Area
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The question you posted is very carefully stacked to get the response you want and has little bearing on your assertions that:
1. A person will always react the way you did in your personal experiences. 2. That the way you reacted is always the right way. 3. That any experience resembling yours will be governed by the same set of circumstances that your was. What you are surprised about is NOT that there is no consensus, it's that people disagree with you. There is a consensus. The consensus is that it depends on the circumstances. The circumstances you carefully defined generated one consensus. Change one small item in your scenario and the consensus will be different.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
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September 22, 2006, 02:41 AM | #5 |
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I have been robbed many, many times... usually while packing iron. My standard move is to toss them my wallet as I back away from them. Their attention usually locks onto the wallet and I can increase the distance between us to end the standoff.
They have always taken off after usurping my meager holdings so I have never had to initiate the furball. If I ever believed that they were about to light me up, the tossed wallet could be a good distraction for my draw. |
September 22, 2006, 09:03 AM | #6 | |
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Quote:
How in the world do you manage to get in the same situations over and over again without changing your routine to avoid the duplication? Carter |
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September 22, 2006, 09:16 AM | #7 |
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I have to go along with "Oldbillthunderchief", at least to a certain extent.
#1: Carry a "throw-away" wallet with a couple of bucks in it, but NO credit/charge cards or valid I.D. in it. Of course, the bad guy may not be satisfied with the meager amount, and continue the robbery. #2: If your tossing of the "throw-away" wallet has, in your opinion, been enough of a distraction, you need to engage your brain and head for cover, or to flee. If you're not armed, fleeing is probably your best bet. If you ARE armed, then draw from you position of cover and have the mind set that you MIGHT be involved in a shoot-out! If you're in a vehicle, which isn't always the best "cover", you might be able to use the vehicle to your advantage....to either flee OR use it as a "weapon". Add to that, while seated in your vehicle, it will give a certain amount of "concealment, and it may be enough to draw your weapon. Several years ago, an off-duty police officer went to a fast food "drive-thru" after putting in some over-time at work. The parking lot of the restaurant had some rowdy kids in it, so the officer decided to park on a side street to eat his food. The officer was aware of a stranger approaching him as he ate, but figured that it was a panhandler. Instead, it was an armed bad guy, who had the officer compromised. "Give me your wallet!", the bad guy exclaimed. The officer manuevered around in the drivers seat of his car, as if trying to get to his wallet. What he did was to (A) unholster his off-duty weapon and (B) remove a "throw-away" wallet from his pants pocket. Instead of handing the wallet to the suspect, he tossed it about 10' away. The suspect went to fetch the wallet, which gave the officer enough time to properly control his off-duty weapon and have the "edge" on the suspect. The officer then identified himself as a police officer and demanded that the suspect drop his weapon. Instead, the suspect lifted his weapon, and....met his demise! Distractions and "ruses" should only be used if you have the proper mind-set AND can carry them out in a convincing manner. On the other hand, an "off-the-wall" ruse of some sort might actually confuse the bad guy! Might it work if you exclaim, "Hey, your shoe is untied!"? How about yelling, "Watch out! There's a police car!"? Maybe YES, maybe NO. Best of all is to be alert and totally aware of your surroundings at all times. Don't go to places where danger is a known commodity. Don't get into the rut of believing that you are "invincible" just because you're carrying a firearm. Think "optional" weapons that are available to you, such as that hunk of steel, plastic and rubber that you drive. Above all, use your BEST weapon....your brain! |
September 22, 2006, 09:27 AM | #8 |
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Perhaps this is a stupid question and somewhat off-topic, but wouldn't throwing a "fake" wallet (with fake credit, etc.) only anger the BG, assuming he checks his "goods" while still on the scene?
Seems like this is also a risky tactic. If I was going to comply, I certainly would do it all the way and not risk pissing him off further by attempting to trick him. Too many variables for a defined answer I suppose. And I'm certainly no expert on the subject... Last edited by tydephan; September 22, 2006 at 10:31 AM. |
September 22, 2006, 11:59 AM | #9 |
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Every tactic (including compliance) is risky. That is why you have to assess the risk in each situation. You cannot have a pat answer to fit every scenario. The purpose of a distraction is to give the bg's mind something to occupy it instead of the thought of pulling the trigger. As a bonus, if he diverts his visual attention as well, you have gained even more time. With proper training and practice, you only need less than .5 seconds. Most people take more than .25 to react to something when they are prepared for it. It takes longer when you are not because your mind has to process the input (visual, audible) and decide a course of action.
I can't remember who it was (perhaps Bill Jordan) who used to do the clapping trick, but it demonstrates this principal rather well. Whoever it was would stand someone facing them and have them put their hands straight out in front, shoulder width apart, palms facing each other. He would then tell the subject to clap his hands as soon as they noticed him drawing. Every time I have seen this done, the person clapping their hands ended up with the gun between their hands (hope that made sense). Don't try this at home and please don't lecture me on how unsafe that was. I'm not the one who did it. Also, I know it is television but I also know the story behind it. If you watch the Miami Vice Episode Calderone's Return, Jim Zubiena plays "the Argentinian", a hitman. After wacking a guy in a limo, he is confronted by a bodyguard who gets the drop on him. Jim puts his hands up as ordered and when the body guard looks away, executes a perfect Mozambique drill. I never tried to time it, but it was easily sub 1.25 seconds. He was using a 1911 and used (I believe) a Milt Sparks summer special (iirc) under a sport coat. Normally I would say so what, the camera can decieve. I asked Zubiena about it at the steel challenge. He said that Michael Mann said "don't worry, we'll speed up the film." Zubiena told him "don't worry, you won't have to." What you see on film is the actual speed. Jim was an early IPSC shooter and SWPL champion. I think it is a better sequence than the shooting in Colateral. Not to belabor the point further, but it is possible with a small amount of training, practice and with the correct mindset. Since P.A.R. seems to be hooked on creds, here are mine. 6 years US Army/ARNG (LRRP + 101st Abn Div) I was one of the first master class shooters in USPSA. I have won stages at the Nationals, several state championships and other major matches. Sponsored by Springfield Armory, Dillon Precision, Safariland, Vic Inc. and several others. Graduate of Chapman Academy, M.I.S.S. (John Shaw),Plaxco, Leatham Shooting institute and several others that I don't remember. Founder of the practical shooting club at Gilbert Small Arms Range and Quantico MCB in Va. Founder of the practical shooting club at Shooter's world and UPPL in AZ. Firearms consutant for several L.E. and military agencies. Plus many others that I can't think of right now. Can't forget: all around good guy.:barf: |
September 22, 2006, 02:07 PM | #10 |
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Thanx for the reponses.
Last edited by PinnedAndRecessed; September 22, 2006 at 05:52 PM. |
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