I have heard it said that IDPA can get you killed? - Page 3

Sarge · June 24, 2012, 08:42 AM

Been a police FTO for decades. I will always take a trainee with firearms experience, over one with none.

Yes, you occasionally have to correct problems but that's what I'm doing anyhow. I often have to correct errors in basic technique, from officers who have just graduated a four-month academy--including range time--who still can't shoot well.

The bigger cities' police departments have always paid better, had better benefits, furnished more and better equipment and offered more adventure. They've never had any trouble at all attracting trainees from rural areas.

Steviewonder1 · June 24, 2012, 10:44 AM

I have shot USPSA/IPSC for the last 20 years and have taken 5 Gun Fighting classes in the last 3 years. I do not subscribe to the IDPA process (11 rounds in gun or less) but have shot it a few times. In the gun fighting classes I always shoot to slide lock and reload the gun. I can shoot on the run, strong hand and weak hand at targets out to 30 feet with no issue. Anything more than that and I am going to cover. I carry more than 10 rounds in my guns and do not limit myself in what I can shoot. I recently did a "Shoot with SWAT" from my local PD Group at an Indoor Gun range where there was 3 courses of fire to shoot for their local charity. I shot at the top of my group or near the top of the list. Some folks came with no holsters or mag pouches! The SWAT guys said all the PD team was Pro 2A and wished that there was more CCW in the community! Now that is an attitude from those that protect us!

Jim Watson · June 24, 2012, 11:08 AM

Quote:

I do not subscribe to the IDPA process (11 rounds in gun or less)

What a lot of people forget is that IDPA was organized during the AWB when a 10 round magazine was the largest you could buy over the counter. They have stayed with it after "sunset" so their classifications, CoFs and procedures would be consistent. Also so the membership in repressive jurisdictions like California and Canada that still have magazine limits could be competitive.

Glenn E. Meyer · June 24, 2012, 03:01 PM

I agree that the mag limit doesn't reflect the guns but it isn't that bad to get some repetitive practice of mag changes. After shooting IDPA for a bit, you get them on fast automatic.

If you want 200 round mags - shoot IPSC -

.

Nanuk · June 25, 2012, 01:17 AM

Competition shooting will not get you killed if you get in a real fight. What makes people lock up is paralysis by analysis. Train, have a plan, be able to make a plan.

I am a retired LEO (USBP) and competitive shooter. I shot PPC, was on the Ft Worth PD Pistol team, I shoot IDPA. I get penalized every match for breaking some IDPA rule. I shoot IDPA because it is great fun, trigger time and all day with other gun guys and girls.

While I was working (ok I am still working, just for a different master) I used my duty gun and duty ammo (H&K P2000 40 with hot 155's). Now I shoot what is fun, Glocks, revolvers, whatever.

Competition is NOT training, cannot replace training, however, it CAN supplement training.

Retaining mags is not always stupid in SD, nor is a reload of a partially loaded gun. If you have fired any rounds getting to cover, you probably do not know how many rounds you fired. Before you break cover to move to other cover or to keep from being flanked, you should reload. IDPA rules state that you must be behind cover to reload, hmm sounds smart to me.

Jeff22 · July 9, 2012, 01:05 AM

I shoot both IPSC and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. IPSC and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.

But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier or an IPSC classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. Some IPSC assault courses totally lack any connection to reality and are best avoided IMHO, but classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship skills that are required in that course of fire.

In such competitions I've most often always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. (Currently it's a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal.)

I'm more interested in getting trigger time than in shooting the matches as a competitive activity. Of course, I'm not particularly fast, so if I WAS attempting to become the next USPSA champion, I'd be way out of luck . . .

In general I prefer the course design philosophy of IDPA. However, I've been shooting IPSC on a sporadic basis at the local level since 1978, and I've become more involved recently since some of the local clubs have been regenerated.

I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local IPSC clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.

There was a similar thread on one of the other forums a few years ago, and one poster had an interesting thought that kind of mirrors my philosophy -- he takes IDPA more seriously and competes in IPSC as a sort of structured practice session.

You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .

Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)

Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the IPSC shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" assault courses [which don't fit in with my philosophy very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )

Competitive shooting certainly has the potential to help you increase your marksmanship and gun handling skills, depending upon what kind of matches you're shooting. It can also certainly train you into bad habits, just as focusing too much on speed, jerking the trigger, and forgetting to look at the sights . . . you have to be mindful in everything you do if you want to maximize the skill building potential of that particular activity.

jimbob86 · July 9, 2012, 02:09 AM

Quote:

can shooting IDPA get you killed?

Not as surely as only lesiurely shooting at big round circles or leaving your gun in the safe and never shooting it.

Familiarization with your equipment is a very good thing, and more is better. Add in some stress and time pressure, decision making on the fly .... what is bad about that?

June 24, 2012, 08:42 AM	#51
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Been a police FTO for decades. I will always take a trainee with firearms experience, over one with none. Yes, you occasionally have to correct problems but that's what I'm doing anyhow. I often have to correct errors in basic technique, from officers who have just graduated a four-month academy--including range time--who still can't shoot well. The bigger cities' police departments have always paid better, had better benefits, furnished more and better equipment and offered more adventure. They've never had any trouble at all attracting trainees from rural areas. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

June 24, 2012, 03:01 PM	#54
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	I agree that the mag limit doesn't reflect the guns but it isn't that bad to get some repetitive practice of mag changes. After shooting IDPA for a bit, you get them on fast automatic. If you want 200 round mags - shoot IPSC - . __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 25, 2012, 01:17 AM	#55
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	Competition shooting will not get you killed if you get in a real fight. What makes people lock up is paralysis by analysis. Train, have a plan, be able to make a plan. I am a retired LEO (USBP) and competitive shooter. I shot PPC, was on the Ft Worth PD Pistol team, I shoot IDPA. I get penalized every match for breaking some IDPA rule. I shoot IDPA because it is great fun, trigger time and all day with other gun guys and girls. While I was working (ok I am still working, just for a different master) I used my duty gun and duty ammo (H&K P2000 40 with hot 155's). Now I shoot what is fun, Glocks, revolvers, whatever. Competition is NOT training, cannot replace training, however, it CAN supplement training. Retaining mags is not always stupid in SD, nor is a reload of a partially loaded gun. If you have fired any rounds getting to cover, you probably do not know how many rounds you fired. Before you break cover to move to other cover or to keep from being flanked, you should reload. IDPA rules state that you must be behind cover to reload, hmm sounds smart to me. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

July 9, 2012, 01:05 AM	#56
Jeff22 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2004 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 715	can shooting IDPA get you killed? I shoot both IPSC and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. IPSC and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight. But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier or an IPSC classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. Some IPSC assault courses totally lack any connection to reality and are best avoided IMHO, but classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship skills that are required in that course of fire. In such competitions I've most often always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. (Currently it's a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal.) I'm more interested in getting trigger time than in shooting the matches as a competitive activity. Of course, I'm not particularly fast, so if I WAS attempting to become the next USPSA champion, I'd be way out of luck . . . In general I prefer the course design philosophy of IDPA. However, I've been shooting IPSC on a sporadic basis at the local level since 1978, and I've become more involved recently since some of the local clubs have been regenerated. I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local IPSC clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD. There was a similar thread on one of the other forums a few years ago, and one poster had an interesting thought that kind of mirrors my philosophy -- he takes IDPA more seriously and competes in IPSC as a sort of structured practice session. You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . . Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover) Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the IPSC shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" assault courses [which don't fit in with my philosophy very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . ) Competitive shooting certainly has the potential to help you increase your marksmanship and gun handling skills, depending upon what kind of matches you're shooting. It can also certainly train you into bad habits, just as focusing too much on speed, jerking the trigger, and forgetting to look at the sights . . . you have to be mindful in everything you do if you want to maximize the skill building potential of that particular activity. __________________ You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!

June 24, 2012, 10:44 AM	#52
Steviewonder1 Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2009 Location: John's Creek, Georgia Posts: 328	I have shot USPSA/IPSC for the last 20 years and have taken 5 Gun Fighting classes in the last 3 years. I do not subscribe to the IDPA process (11 rounds in gun or less) but have shot it a few times. In the gun fighting classes I always shoot to slide lock and reload the gun. I can shoot on the run, strong hand and weak hand at targets out to 30 feet with no issue. Anything more than that and I am going to cover. I carry more than 10 rounds in my guns and do not limit myself in what I can shoot. I recently did a "Shoot with SWAT" from my local PD Group at an Indoor Gun range where there was 3 courses of fire to shoot for their local charity. I shot at the top of my group or near the top of the list. Some folks came with no holsters or mag pouches! The SWAT guys said all the PD team was Pro 2A and wished that there was more CCW in the community! Now that is an attitude from those that protect us!