Match ammunition from a Dillon 650?

[Powderman]

I find myself in a position where I have to load some match quality .308 ammunition--500 rounds--by this Saturday.

My question for you all--and all comments are welcome...

Is it possible for me to load match-quality, accurate and consistent ammunition on my Dillon 650?

Here is the component information: RL15 powder, Lake City Match cases (once fired), 175 grain MatchKings and CCI #34 primers.

What say you all? For the record, these cartridges will be fired from a bolt gun, at ranges from 100 to 1000 yards.

[Shoney]

Presuming you have done the case prep of neck turning, volumetric sorting and et cetera, you will need to weigh charges individually as the PM is not good enough.

A load map from 6mmBR indicates 45gr RL15; F210m primer; 175 SMK; 2.800" col; as very accurate in 24" bbl.

I have done runout data on the 650 and it was good but not excelent. You should be able to get respectable results, but don't expect to win.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

Powderman presents one very good reason for new loaders to start with a single stage machine, and to keep the single stage machine after they have moved on to a progressive machine. There are other good reasons to have a good single stage machine after you have purchased a progressive, but I will allow others to comment on some of their own particular reasons.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Slamfire]

If BartB comes into this thread, maybe he can tell you how Palma Team ammunition was loaded on a Dillion.

I size, trim, prime off my Dillion. But I dump and seat bullets on my 550B. I have won my fair share of matches, so I know that shooting accurately is more about sight alignment and trigger pull than esoteric reloading practices.

[armsmaster270]

I use the 550b and have the powder measure on a stand throw the powder into the scale pan and finish it off with a powder trickeler then pour into the case

[azredhawk44]

You will probably get better powder consistency results with a ball powder rather than stick. Dump the RL15 and look for some AA2520 or H335 or other ball powder.

I'd worry about the plate flexing during the sizing operation and it affecting my seat or crimp operation at another station. I'd expect OAL variations in excess of 0.005" through the batch.

If you get cranking NOW you could have 500 rounds loaded on a single stage in about 6-8 hours of work. Three hours today, 3-4 hours tomorrow. Of course that doesn't include case sorting though.

[madmo44mag]

I load match grade ammo on my progressive.
All the case basics are done and when I come to the powder station I use a funnel and weigh each charge and rack it around to the next case.
It's faster than a single stage but slower than using a powder measuring device.
Each charge is identical to the last.
I have yet to see a powder dump device that doesn't have at least a +/- one tenth and most are 2 tenths.
Scales are the only way to be "Spot On" on the powder weight.

[Unclenick]

1992 Palma Match ammo was done on the somewhat beefier 1050, but it can be done on the 550B. The only modification to the normal procedure I would make is to buy a Redding Competition Seating Die. These dies go a long way to making up for bullet runout error due the press not being a Forster Co-ax or an arbor press setup (both of those arrangements allow dies to find their own center on the case). That runout error can be seen on the target and accounts for up an moa of error in the bullet size you are using.

Regarding the powder measure, I think you can make it work. I found it helps to add a second baffle perpendicular to and a couple of inches above the molded-in one in the Dillon measure. You can download my .PDF file of baffle templates and instructions here.

Hatcher tells of selecting powders for National Match ammo one year in which candidates had been narrowed to a stick powder and a small grain powder (this was between the World Wars, IIRC, so it preceded spherical propellants, if I have my memory and history right). The armory's loading gear would hold the charge weights of the fine grain powder to within something like a .6 grains extreme spread, while the stick powder could only be held to something like twice that. Nonetheless, the stick powder consistently produced more accurate ammunition regardless of how they adjusted the charge. Hatcher attributed this to the superior ability of stick powders to light up consistently.

I have pulled bullets on match ammunition and ball ammunition in the past to measure charge variance. The best was Winchester Supreme .308 match ammo with 168 grain boattail match bullet. It had a minuscule 0.05 grain extreme spread in its very fine grain 748-type powder. By comparison, the Federal Gold Medal .308 match ammo with that same bullet type had a 4895-like stick powder with 0.4 grains extreme spread. Nonetheless, the Federal Ammo shot better in my guns.

So, I expect you will find Reloader 15 has pretty fair ignition and can tolerate a bit more charge variance than some other powders. I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you feel you just have to get the best possible automatically operated volumetric charge metering of stick powder, the JDS Quick Measure with its Dillon adapter will stay within 0.2 grains even with a fairly coarse stick (probably within 0.1 grains with something as fine as RL-15), but that's an investment and you probably won't have time to get it and mess with setting it up by Saturday. You do have the option to weigh charges and pull the Dillon measure and drop the weighed charges in through a powder funnel.

I don't know if you have time to do any testing? If the load is a good one and you know it will tolerate some charge variation, you should be good to go with what you have except getting the competition seater. Add that second baffle, though. If you want information on how to find loads with wider charge tolerance, check out Dan Newberry's OCW load site.

[Alleykat]

A 650 that will drop powder within .1 grain is going to be plenty accurate for competiton. Most hi-power competitors load on Dillon progressives, and they don't weigh each charge.

[Shoney]

Alleycat

Most hi-power competitors load on Dillon progressives

Please site the source of your information, as I have not seen it.

My measurments indicate Dillon PM's will throw +/- 0.2 to 0.3 varience (thats a 0.4 to 0.6 gr variance in loads) with stick powder in a 550 or 650. Ball powders are slightly less than +/- 0.1.

You can also bet that the machines for National Match teams were built from parts select to blueprint tolerances.

[snuffy]

Set your 650 up like mine;



A closer look at the linkage of the hornady case activated powder die.



I used it set up like this to load .223 match ammo. I even did a test where 10 rounds were loaded full progressive, ten were loaded with weighed powder charges,(Pact dispenser),(varget),(nosler 69 match HP). My bushy couldn't tell the difference! Fully progressive, the charges were only off +- 0.2 grains.

[Alleykat]

Shoney

Please site the source of your information, as I have not seen it.

Just common knowledge amongst those of us who actually know a lot.

[David Wile]

Hey folks,

Alleykat suggested that hight power competitors use Dillon 650 presses to load their ammo and that it was "common knowledge amongst those of us who actually know a lot." I would suggest that Alleykat's "common knowledge" was more likely to be common to the folks at high power shoots who happen to use 650s.

I spent most of my civil service working in Department of Defense locations, and during that time I witnessed perhaps a dozen different military high power competition teams in practice as well as competition. Behind the scenes of the competition, there were always a large staff of enlisted men supporting the shooters by building the competiton ammunition. Besides the extreme measures they used to insure consistency in case measurements and bullet weights, I also noticed that each round they made had a weighed charge. I also noticed that all ammunition was produced on single stage large "O" framed presses. I did not happen to notice one single Dillon or Hornady progressive press used anywhere.

These folks were serious competitors and serious reloaders. They did not shoot on weekends and reload by night. The shooters shot all day - it was their full time job. The reloaders reloaded all day - it was their full time job.

I know that I am not a good enough shooter to measure the difference between ammo I load on my Hornady progressive or ammo I load on one of my single stage presses. For those who are good enough shooters, however, there is a difference that they can measure between ammo loaded to progressive tolerances and ammo loaded to competition standards.

I may not know as much as a bunch of high power competition shooters who load ammo on Dillon 650s, but I do know what our best military competition shooters use to reload their ammo, and it isn't progressives presses.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

[Gewehr98]

And several of the guys on the line were doing the same thing to feed either their M1 Garands, M14/M1A rifles, or AR-15s.

My partner bought me out of my half of the Dillon 650 we shared, so I bought an RL-550 to replace it. I've loaded my match .308 ammo on that for just over a decade now, using IMR4895, with excellent results. That same ammo will shoot 1/2 MOA in my Remington 700PSS. I use Lapua 7.62x51 brass, Sierra 155gr Palmas or 168gr MatchKings, and Federal 210 Match primers.

Making consistent ammo with a Dillon progressive isn't rocket science - far from it. Mine got me to Camp Perry on several occasions.

[73-Captain]

Alleycat
Quote: Most hi-power competitors load on Dillon progressives

Shoney
Quote: You can also bet that the machines for National Match teams were built from parts select to blueprint tolerances.



Have to agree with Alleycat...

EVERY competitive shooter I know of except 2 use the Dillon 650. Several use both the 650 and 1050.


And have to disagree with Shoney...

NOT ONE of these people use a 650 "built from parts select to blueprint tolerances". ALL use standard 650's. ALL have cleaned up and polished the inside of their Dillon powder measures.

Some might have updated their machines with products such as those from "UniqueTek".

C.

[dardascastbullets]

Hi Powderman!

I loaded all my short range competition rounds on my 650 for several years (tens of thousands of rounds) and won several state championships. The SD of my 200 and 300 yard loads was single digit. I used Varget which metered very well through the Dillon measure. And the primer seating was exemplary as well. I will have to say that I also loaded my 600 and 1000 yard loads on different apparatus because the midrange and long range stages demand the ultimate in accuracy.

You too will be able to produce the same results if you pay attention to detail.

[dlb435]

When I first started reloading, I noticed that my ammo was much more consistent than standard factory loads. Just how much change in the powder charge does it take before you can see a differance in the shooting patern?

[Bart B.]

AZredhawk44 states:

You will probably get better powder consistency results with a ball powder rather than stick.

That's a well known fact. Now here's the rest of the story Unclenick told part of regarding the 1992 Palma ammo loaded on Dillon 1050's. One resized the case neck for uniformity then primed it. The other metered powder and seated bullets.

I was one of the folks developing the load for Sierra's then new 155-gr. bullet for Palma matches. We tried several powder types, both extruded and ball, and charge weights; all in new cases. As powder would be metered into primed cases on the 1050 doing it, we metered powder instead of weighing it.

Samples of some loads were tested for pressure and muzzle velocity uniformity. Loads with AA2520 had the lowest spread in charge weight, peak pressure and muzzle velocity. They also were the worst for accuracy. 45.3 grains of IMR4895 was selected even though it had a 3/10ths charge weight spread, accuracy was the best. Tested at 600 yards, those new Winchester cases primed with Federal 210M's shot 20 consecutive rounds into 2.7 inches....at 600 yards. Not too shabby for a 3 thousandths bullet max runout that ammo had.

First used in the 1991 Rocky Mountain Palma Matches' International Division (everyone shot this ammo), I was fortunate to shoot the high combined score over 5 days shooting from 600 to 1000 yards. Top shooters from around the world shooting this match said it held about 1/2 MOA in their rifles at 600 yards; the most accurate ammo most of them had ever shot.

Oh, on reloading tool makes preferred by high power competitors who've produced the best scores, single stage presses are used. But there are lots of highpower shooters who use progressives; how many of 'em win the matches and set the records?

[Smoothe932]

For those of you who weigh charges while using a Dillon press... Any ideas on a good funnel to insert into the powder die, so that I can pour weighed charges through the powder die? Someone told me that Sinclair sold one, but I can't find it on thier site.