|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
August 15, 2006, 02:10 PM | #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
Quote:
Let's assume for a minute that she was a dirtbag protecting her turf. 4am, shouting, flashlights, lots of men running around in her house. Sleepily grabs her gun to protect the "innocent children" under her care. Armed man enters her bedroom on the second floor, (presumably) shouting...yet she still doesn't fire. Which one of us, "Honest, law-abiding", under the same circumstances, wouldn't have been reloading before the 1st cop hit the floor. It seems to me that the untrained civilian woman criminal showed more restraint than the SWAT pro. Before y'all go nuts on me here, I know that she was an alledged criminal, and I probably would not have fired on the cop at all....let alone got off a full mag. I think that this situation is total crap. |
|
August 15, 2006, 02:19 PM | #52 |
Staff
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
|
This whole thing is absurd. If the police conduct an unfruitful, 4 AM raid into your home and you're pointing a gun at the bedroom door as it crashes down, who is at fault for your death? Why should you be required to determine who they are in a fraction of a second, while they are under no requirement to determine who you are, given all the time and resources in the world....before they launch the offensive assault on your castle.
Just how many of these cases are we gonna dismiss as "bad luck" or even "justifiable shooting" before we start taking these Agencies to task for the absurd Policies and Procedures that virtually guarantee more Cheryl Noels? Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook |
August 15, 2006, 02:31 PM | #53 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
Rich said what I meant
Well said rich
|
August 15, 2006, 02:50 PM | #54 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What Charles Noel and the family members eneded up being charged with were misdemeanor possesion of marijuana, he posessed over 5 lbs of blackpowder and they were released on without bail. Pretty damn sad state of affairs when we start killing our citizens over a couple of baggies of marijuana. I just dont understand the need to do a full blown no knock raid on people who have no history of criminal violence. Incompetence, laziness and arrogance by some person in charge.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
|||||
August 15, 2006, 03:20 PM | #55 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 27, 2006
Location: Reno, Nevada
Posts: 161
|
!!!
Well put Rich.
|
August 15, 2006, 03:37 PM | #56 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
Quote:
On the other hand, 'If he came to arrest in the dark of night, in fully protective garb, invading a home where children slept, what would a reasonable person expect to encounter? A person lying prostrate on the floor, awaiting what fate may come? Or an outraged homeowner protecting the lives and property that fall under her charge?' A Homeowner is not allowed to set a booby trap in his house to kill a burglar. Not only that you might kill the innocent, but also the guilty. The punishment must fit the crime. Burglary is not a capital offense. Marijuanna (or heroin) possesion is not a capital offense. Quote:
I see a wider and wider net being cast that ensnares both the guilty and the innocent, all in the name of safety for us all. It seems that it is making allies of the crook and lawabiding. I will consider the accused to be innocent until proven otherwise. |
||
August 15, 2006, 04:38 PM | #57 |
Junior member
Join Date: August 9, 2005
Location: North Georgia
Posts: 2,228
|
The Baltimore City Police Department, and the Baltimore County Police Department are separate entities. The City of Baltimore exists as a stand-alone, just like another county, in Maryland.
Rich, I agree with you that there has been no evidence supplied that would justify a "no-knock" warrant. However, all we seem to be hearing is the information released by the family's attorney, and the people in the house, wherever they were located during the incident. That through the filter of the media, a source of unimpeachable accuracy, right? I also find it troubling that many are also already convinced that the outcome of the events, should they not be in favor of the deceased's family, simply means that the fix is in. Are we that close to thinking like the rioters in the Rodney King Trial? |
August 15, 2006, 04:41 PM | #58 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: February 10, 2001
Location: midwest
Posts: 782
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
August 15, 2006, 04:49 PM | #59 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
Quote:
What I have not heard is any justification by the armed, home-invaders who perpetuated a homicide. Last edited by rangermonroe; August 15, 2006 at 05:21 PM. |
|
August 15, 2006, 05:10 PM | #60 |
Staff
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
|
JR47-
I'm not arguing against the actions of the individual cops in this case....for the hundredth time, I'm arguing against the No-Knock POLICY in routine cases. With that understood, here's what we know: - The raid provided no evidence of real criminal activity in the home....none; zero; nada; zip - No serious charges were filed against ANYONE in the Noel household. - ANOTHER US citizen is dead; gunned down by agents of the State in her damned BEDROOM AT 4 IN THE MORNING - Many on this very web site are looking at it as "just another day" in the law enforcement life of the "Most Free Nation On Earth". How could freedom loving Americans NOT be incensed by this growing trend? Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook |
August 15, 2006, 05:55 PM | #61 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl
Posts: 3,092
|
Quote:
The police have the DUTY to give the homeowner the benefit of the doubt. The police & courts have the DUTY to diligently pre-screen these no-knock raids so as to minimize the incidence of raids on the innocent. I do believe that the police should EXPECT to find armed homeowners of the innocent variety any time they execute such a no-knock warrant, and be prepared for such, so as to minimize the chances for unwarranted loss of life. After all -- if someone comes busting in my door, I'm drawing! I don't have the luxury of hanging around and trying to ascertain whether or not it is a bad guy or a good guy -- they are BUSTING DOWN MY DOOR! It is the cops' job to defuse the situation, not mine -- after all, they instigated the situation.
__________________
COME AND TAKE IT http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm Formerly lived in Ga, but now I'm back in Tx! Aaaand, now I'm off to Fla... |
|
August 15, 2006, 06:02 PM | #62 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 28, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 6,231
|
Like Rich said you cant blame the officers or the guys in the field because they were doing what they were briefed to do. You can blame the policy of doing no knock raids on locations where there has been no history of criminal violence. Now if it was a known crack house with violent offenders out the wazoo who are armed a no knock raid would probably be appropriate.
What makes me mad is the fact that these folks had no history of any criminal violence. Where did the tip that these folks have drugs come from. How hard can it be to check a location and persons for a criminal history. What was going through the heads of those that are entrusted to be in charge and make sure its a good bust? Now there is a cop who has to live with the fact he killed a wife and mother because those he trusted to lead him messed up or were too zealous. If I were a CCW holder or had a weapon at home I would be very nervous about these type of situations happening. Having a CCW may get you killed in a no knock raid if the police check. Our rights to self defense and civil liberties are being nullified by the state with these no knock raids. In a no knock raid if the address is screwed up or its charges blown out of proportion you have the right to die. The law enforcement ageny says sorry and thats about all you get from them in some cases. The second part of this equation needs to be accountability.
__________________
Have a nice day at the range NRA Life Member |
August 15, 2006, 06:06 PM | #63 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
Quote:
Allow me to try once again: The police, having the inteligence (reason for the raid), decide that 4am is the correct time to execute such raid. The police, have the intellignce, that the one to be raided is armed. The police, having the aforementioned intelligence, decide that the public good is best served by hostile, home invasion tactics. At 4 am, the armed homeowner is raided, and killed. Why? It seems to me that the police were dirrectly responsible for that death. |
|
August 15, 2006, 06:21 PM | #64 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
And as long as we're playing the word twisting game, where did I say that she was intentionally pointing it at the cop? Where did I even imply that she could not have been righteously targeting the threat behind the door, which just happened to be a cop? Where have I made any judgment of the legality or righteousness of her actions? Can't find that anywhere can you smart guy? And for the record I am not so stupid as to believe that anyone would try to defend their home with a handgun by threatening to ruin the carpet Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Or did you even think that comment out enough to have a point. Or are you saying that someone one who has dropped to the ground after being shot must also be assumed to have been killed instantly, and that if the shots were fatal there could be no involuntary muscle spasm while on the ground that would have the appearance of reaching for the gun or attempting to fire it. Read the post again. You can read real slow and even move your lips if you need to Quote:
It is obvious that your only reason to post here is to attack me yet again. And yet again you resort to easily refuted juvenile attempts at word twisting.
__________________
Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing |
||||||
August 15, 2006, 06:34 PM | #65 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: savannah
Posts: 758
|
I' ll defend "you"
Names don't need to be called.
Especially when we have taken a single news story, and picked it apart to molecular levels. But, you are still wrong, joab..... |
August 15, 2006, 06:56 PM | #66 |
Staff
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
|
Joab-
Why do you keep focusing on the 3 seconds of the confrontation, while continuing to ignore the 30 hours that led up to it; the 30 hours and MORE if they needed it! In fairness, this thread is not about those 3 seconds, but about those 30 hours: - the 30 hours during which the State could re-check their charges, evidence and sources. - the 30 hours during which the State could recheck the motto on their own patrol cars, had they forgotten what The State stands for. - the 30 hours during which the State could re-evaluate the risk to its own Officers vs the benefits to its own Constituents. - the 30 hours during which the State could choose to act as a key component of the Most Free Nation on Earth, vs a Banana Republic Death Squad. Why do you keep doing that? Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook |
August 15, 2006, 07:14 PM | #67 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,902
|
joab, I have entirely too little information to render any sort of reasonable judgement about the actions of the police during the raid. However, the indisputable evidence of the results of the raid strongly suggest that there was not adequate justification for a no-knock raid in the first place.
|
August 15, 2006, 07:25 PM | #68 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
My contention has been that an article that gives only the family and trial lawyer's account of the incident is enough evidence for some to start with the cop bashing that seems so prevalent on these boards. When that same level of "evidence" against an arrested gun owner would be dismissed as propaganda My reference to those three seconds in my last two or three posts was a direct response to AzureFly's attempt to paint me as a hypocrite. You will also see that I have made no judgment either way on this case, although some here ,predictably, paint me as a sheep for the state because I refuse to rush judgment and condemnation of people who happen to be cops based on a one sided article. Perhaps coincidently but every post prior to my first was simple cop bashing and nothing more. The post immediately after mine was a call for more info before judgment. I have no opinion on this particular raid because there is no reporting on the issues that led the police to conduct the raid in this fashion. And I have no training or insight on what exactly goes on in the planning of these raids, this one in particular. I do have an opinion on how these cop bashing threads reflect on us as a community or group Of the last three people I have directed to this site, and one other, two have come back and said that we seem like a bunch of anarchists and their opinion of "gun nuts" was only strengthened by the encounter. The other just laughed it off and called us the anti Brady Bunch, implying that, in his opinion we were as nutty and zealous as they are and hs wife called us scary. .
__________________
Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing |
|
August 15, 2006, 07:31 PM | #69 | |||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing |
|||||||
August 15, 2006, 07:48 PM | #70 | |
Staff
Join Date: October 6, 1998
Location: South Florida
Posts: 10,229
|
Quote:
I am about sooooo done here. - You can't make a judgment about the 4 AM STORMING of a US CITIZEN RESIDENCE that the EVIDENCE SHOWS was not engaged in drug trafficking? - You can't make judgment regarding the RESPONSIBILITY of AMERICAN CITIZENS to protect their families against home invasions in the dark of night? - You can't understand what all the hubub is when a MOTHER is gunned down for pointing a LEGAL FIREARM at/toward/near/around a [might have claimed-to-be] INVADING STATE AGENT IN HER BEDROOM AT 4 IN THE MORNING? - You can't make a judgment as to how many Noel Family Terrors go unreported by the press....because they don't result in shots fired; just families terrorized? Is it 10:1 Noel? 50:1 Noel? 100:1 Noel? If you can't venture a "judgment", would you AT LEAST venture a GUESS?!!!! - You need a Judge to tell you how you should think on these issues?....they are each FACT or ramification of the FACT. Well, then....I suggest you should relinquish your right to VOTE....until, of course, you have "all the facts" before Election Day. Rich
__________________
S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook |
|
August 15, 2006, 07:54 PM | #71 | |
Junior member
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
|
the blood is boiling now
Quote:
I know what would happen if I was king for a day. The police chief AND the magistrate who authorized this would be publicly hanged, and I'm not kidding. We have GOT to start holding the government accountable for their wrongful deaths, in a big way. If there's any justice, the Baltimore cops will be bankrupt and the lady's family very very rich when this is all over. |
|
August 15, 2006, 07:59 PM | #72 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 24, 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,902
|
joab, you decry cop bashing - so do I. But do you not see any teeny, tiny hint of a problem with the system that allowed this raid to occur?
|
August 15, 2006, 08:01 PM | #73 | |
Junior member
Join Date: June 6, 2005
Location: ETN, Again
Posts: 760
|
Quote:
Look at the guy who shot the drunk off duty cop with a history of DUIs when his wife was being attacked by him. The police *in his area* (Not an indictment of all good officers* are doing everything in their power to get him put away on murder charges. We should all know our place and not mess with the superior class, donchaknow. They're the only ones professional enough to _____ . |
|
August 15, 2006, 08:01 PM | #74 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Where has that been factually established as the motive for the woman arming herself? Quote:
I have stated my position on what you call "hubbub"? My stated position is simply against the unwarranted attack on the police noting more. Quote:
I certainly don't make my choice simply based on an article presenting the opinion of the opposing party Right back attcha
__________________
Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing |
||||
August 15, 2006, 08:07 PM | #75 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: November 17, 2002
Location: Orl Fla
Posts: 3,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Don't you see any teeny tiny hint of what I am saying here
__________________
Joab the Bugman Founding member- Lords of Pomposity It's a Yankee Doodle thing |
||
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|