Critique This

[Tinner666]

The 'Defensive Draw vs Brandishing' thread is what prompted this thread. I had to write the story in Word and paste it here since it was longish. It happened to us about 12-15 years ago. Later, I tell how it ended.


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I live and work in a high crime area. One morning, when the wife and I arrived at my shop, we saw two men poking around through stuff stored across the street, about 35-40’ away. (The spot is where we often find bodies, stolen goods, and have even been attacked from behind the items there.)
I told her to call PD and back me up. She quietly drew her pistol as I crossed into the street within 20’ of them. I had my pistol in hand, at my side and hidden from view.
“What are ya’ll doing?”
“None of your business/”
“You’re trespassing. What are you doing?”
“Get out of here! It’s none of your business!”
“I’m making it my business.”
Then the one closest to me reached under his jacket. I brought my pistol forward and said “Freeze!! Hold it right there!” I was at ‘SUL’ and not actually pointing at them now.
They look at each other and ‘exchanged glances as 2 guy kinda eases to his left, my right. #1 slightly eases to his right to spread away. I said ‘Don’t try it! She has you covered!” I nodded to my right and they looked over. Wife had here pistol in front of her, and not quite aimed. She wagged it from side to side and shook her head and said “Uh-uh.”
First guy stares at me and says? We’re the Police.”
Well! That sent shivers up my spine. After a moment, I said I wasn’t holstering at this point and told #1 to slowly open his jacket and show his badge, pistol and then get his ID out. Then insisted #2 do the same.

Well, they were PD!
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[MrBorland]

I didn't read the thread you referenced, but based only on the info you provided, I'd say you had no business confronting them. Your immediate life wasn't in danger, and your wife already called the police. Coulda unnecessarily turned out very badly, though I suppose we'll find out. Just my $0.02.

[madmo44mag]

I live and work in a high crime area. One morning, when the wife and I arrived at my shop, we saw two men poking around through stuff stored across the street, about 35-40’ away.

Was this YOUR stored property???
If so based on what details you have given then you did have a vested interest to protect your property IMO.

Another question is does your state have laws that prevent a CCW from protecting their property if no threat is evident?

[OldMarksman]

Probably a very good cases study in what not to do.

This should say why, and it should be self-explanatory.

Relevant excerpts:

The threat to use deadly force by brandishing a deadly weapon has long been considered an assault. Harper v. Commonwealth, 196 Va. 723, 733, 85 S.E.2d 249, 255 (1955).

Such a threat may give the threatened person a right to defend himself by the use of a deadly weapon. McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978).

Moreover, the owner of land has no right to assault a mere trespasser with a deadly weapon. Montgomery, 98 Va. at 844, 36 S.E. at 373.

[kraigwy]

Since no one was getting hurt, seems to me one (wife) calling the police while one (you) filming the activity via cell phone, would have been a more proper response.

But then I wasn't there.

[Dwight55]

Critique?

I'm thinking that I'm going into MY office, . . . watch thru the window, . . . get local police on the line, . . . take pictures if camera is handy.

All is well that ends well, . . . but that could have gone so bad, . . . so quick, . . . and so easily.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Signal-0]

What you did was foolish... next time, call 911 and just observe.

[g.willikers]

A neighbor did that.
He called to police to report prowlers on his own property.
Then decided to take matters into his own hands, before the police had a chance to respond.
When they did, all they saw was one guy on the lawn, next to the front porch, with a gun in his hand.
He did not survive.
You were fracking lucky.
Call the cops?
Stay inside and let them do their job.
Is your wife still speaking to you?

[JWT]

I think the OP was out of line and fortunate not to have the incident end quite badly.

[armed]

Tinner666

I go into interview mode, immediately, when I meet folks involved in gunplay. I'm soaking up all information like a sponge. It’s been a large part of my success. So just imagine a smiling pup in front of the screen, ears perked, waiting on treats.

Why did you approach? I mean what was you’re mindset at the time…had you just got out of the military, were you ex-Leo, did your job entail first responder responsibilities…?

Assuming wife followed instructions...did 911 give any of their own, i.e, “don’t approach”, “we got cops working the area”, etc?

You said:

…the one closest…reached under…jacket. I brought pistol forward and said Freeze…I was at ‘SUL’ not pointing at them…

Are you saying in this order:

1. BG reaches for waist
2. You transition from behind-the-leg ready to sul

That’s it? Muzzle was never on target at full extension…you only staged in 2 ready positions through entire event?

In hindsight, are you satisfied with the decisions you made, and what changes have you made - if any?

Thanks Tinner. Give me my puppy treats.

[winchester1917]

It really seems like you called the police and took the role of the police simultaneously... I would think you should've done one or the other, but not both. (Of course I'm being a little sarcastic here. I don't suggest that we assume police responsibilities.) Based on the actions you took, you might have been better off calling for an ambulance...

I'm curious how the story ends. I can't imagine it would end well for you in today's culture, but maybe that 12-15 year difference really makes the difference...

[OldMarksman]

Posted by Tinner666: I brought my pistol forward and said “Freeze!! Hold it right there!”

Tinner, has it occurred to you that either or both of the men might well have been justified in shooting you in self defense?

[Frank Ettin]

Originally Posted by Tinner666

...I had to write the story in Word and paste it here since it was longish. It happened to us about 12-15 years ago. Later, I tell how it ended...

I'll be interested to hear how this all ended.

Based on the Virginia case law cited by OldMarksman in post 4, it appears that you unlawfully, without justification, threatened two people with lethal force. They apparently could have been justified in shooting you in self defense (even if they weren't LEOs).

[serf 'rett]

It appears Tinner666 didn't get shot; but he well could have been shot where I live. You can defend your life or the lives of others only when there is compelling reason to believe there is a potentially lethal threat.

What happened 10 to 12 years ago might go down very different today.

I would not have engaged.

[OldMarksman]

Posted by serf 'reft: It appears Tinner666 didn't get shot; but he well could have been shot where I live. You can defend your life or the lives of others only when there is compelling reason to believe there is a potentially lethal threat.

So, there are two issues.

First, the display of the firearm in the absence of lawful justification might well have put in him very hot water indeed.

But even more importatantly, his display might well have given them reason to believe that they faced an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm.

Before drawingn a firearm, one should always have both an immediate need and an idea of what one intends to do with it.

[Sevens]

Of all the things I would think most of agree were BAD ideas here, I would submit that involving your wife was perhaps the WORST one. And I would ramp "worst" up exponentially if the two of you had children, and young children at that.

the spot is where we often find bodies

Really.

If you don't own "the spot" I don't think it's a great idea to visit the spot.

If you do own the spot, it might be a fine investment in time, money, and energy to tackle the issue so that maybe you find bodies there less often.

[TailGator]

To be completely honest, my opinion is that calling 911 was just about the only thing you did right.

Confronting the people needlessly was a tactical error that could have gone badly for you. It sounds like you walked away from what cover was available. Drawing your firearm when there was no demonstrable threat could be construed as a deadly assault, resulting in either criminal charges or justified defensive fire from the other party, whether they were LEOs or not. If I understand correctly, you left your property and crossed the street toward them, telling them they were trespassing; if it indeed wasn't your property that may have been some kind of a violation, too.

I am hoping that the ending is something like you bought them a beer, apologized for the misunderstanding, and had a good laugh, but there are a multitude of ways this could have gone south.

[Sharkbite]

"Critique this"....

You screwed up, ROYALLY!!

What kind of power trip are people on as soon as they get a CCW?

PROTECT YOUR LIFE, the LIVES of loved ones and if so inclined, the LIVES of others. Nothing else is worth it.

Jeez

[Glockstar .40]

Your lucky a fellow chl holder didn't see you engage 2 unarmed gentlemen and think you were the bad guy. If your life isn't in immediate danger wait for the police.

[g.willikers]

Tinner hasn't answered with the rest of the story because:
1. He's still in jail and only has access to a computer on every third Tuesday.
Or
2. His wife realized he's not safe to be around and,
Pick one:
Divorced him
Had him committed,
Ran away with one of the cops,
Took all his assets and he has to wait his turn for a computer at the local library.
Or
3. He doesn't take kindly to criticism and will never talk to us again.
Or
4. The incident ended so badly that he has suppressed the memory again, and has forgotten it ever happened.
Or
5. He was so shaken up by the near miss that he traded his gun for a whistle.

[T. O'Heir]

"...I crossed into the street..." Provocation of a non-threatening individual. The fact you didn't get shot or arrested by the coppers you bothered means you got lucky. Having the CCW doesn't make you LEO.

[Tinner666]

The ground belonged to the Mayor. I kept trailers and other stuff there, as did Roger and Larry. About once a week, somebody would pop out from behind something with knife, club, or revolver and attempt a robbery.
Overnight thefts were dropped off there to be picked up later. We've block the road and wait for PD to come after calling it in. Sometimes the gang members would get there first and things would get hairy.

One dude shot my truck up pretty bad one morning. I held fire due to people across the field waiting for a bus.

Cops were about 20' up the street from the telephone pole.

1. BG reaches for waist
2. You transition from behind-the-leg ready to sul

That’s it? Muzzle was never on target at full extension…you only staged in 2 ready positions through entire event?

In hindsight, are you satisfied with the decisions you made, and what changes have you made - if any?

Muzzle never pointed at either cop. Never even displayed until the sudden move under his coat. It was hidden until then.

I'll be interested to hear how this all ended.

Based on the Virginia case law cited by OldMarksman in post 4, it appears that you unlawfully, without justification, threatened two people with lethal force. They apparently could have been justified in shooting you in self defense (even if they weren't LEOs).

The PD said we handled it correctly. They were investigating an abduction and rape that ended there. No crime scene tape anywhere..

Robbery and assault attempts were a weekly occurance there. Slowed down a bit now.

[g.willikers]

Ok, no fooling around.
The real reason he hasn't responded is that the whole story is made up and he's just checking our replies, to make sure we're safe to be around.

[Tinner666]

Carl, two doors down gave a guy his money. The guy walked out, turned and shot him with a shotgun. Ruined his arm.
RIcky, next door over said I was too violent. He'd help 'them' out. One day, when he didn't have money to give, they stabbed abd hacked him to death. When he wouldn't fit into a barrel they wanted to hide the body in, they severed his head so he'd fit.
Another contractor stopped to use the payphone on the corner. He only had $2.00 for the robber, the BG killed him.
I could go on.
Harry, on the other hand has shot 9 so far.

[Tinner666]

I forgot something. For some reason, the shop was a 'deadspot' for the cell phones. No clue why. She never got through.