AR-15 Competition?

sparkysteve · January 25, 2009, 10:04 AM

I'm thinking about building my first AR. Money's tight, but I want to buy a lower and buy parts as I can before the next AWB with my tax return. What kind of competition shooting can I get into with an AR? I'm mostly a hunting/plinking kind of guy but would like a good excuse to shoot my new toy. I usualy shoot at a friend's farm but live near this club: http://www.sksc.org

kraigwy · January 25, 2009, 12:00 PM

I think there is no finner place to learn to shoot an AR then in high power.

I'm assuming since you said you are GOING TO build the gun you havent started yet. When choosing a barrel get one that has a 1-7 twist to shoot the heavier bullets needed at 600 and 1000 yards. They will also shoot the cheaper 55 grins for plinking and 100 yard reduced HP practiced.

All states have State Rifle and Pistol Clubs that shoot high power, Most have High Power Clinics to get you started. Check out the CMP web site for a list of clubs in your area.

Also the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) Sells THE SERVICE RIFLE GUIDE put out by the USAMU, the best shooters in the world. This guide cost $6.95 and will get you well on the way to competition shooting.

Regardless of what you end up shooting, High Power will give you the fundamentals that you need. Whether you desided to shoot HP, Multi or 3 gun matches.

Also you'll never find a greater bunch of guys then high power shooter. They are more then willing to jump in and help a new shooter on his way.

Have fun and good luck with you build.

Ken O · January 25, 2009, 04:02 PM

I agree with the post above, High Power is the way to go. You are in driving distance from a few clubs with a XTC 600 yard range. I have shot ISPC at South Kent, but I don't think they have pits for a rifle range.

Cadillac, Fort Custer, Port Huron, and Washtenaw come to mind right now for XTC matches to 600 yards. Add in Midland for 600 yard prone matches (but no XTC 200 300). At Camp Grayling we shoot 800, 900, and 1000 yards. Muskegon also has 200 with pits, but I havent shot there.

The 7 twist barrel is what you need, also a float tube if your building your own. I would keep it Sevice Rifle legal so you can shoot CMP matches also.
Watch the MR&P Michigan Rifle and pistol Association website, the 2009 schedule for most clubs in the state will be on there.

If there is anything I can help you with, let me know. My home club is Cadillac, but shoot all over, and can probably put you in touch with the club you might want to shoot at. You would be very welcome to come up to Cadillac. Ken

Tim R · January 26, 2009, 04:34 PM

Like the other have said "High Power". If you shoot high power, you will learn several things and become a better overall shot. It will improve your hunting rifle abilites. Plus, the High Power guys are a great group of guys always willing to help out a new guy. And like the other have already said MAKE SURE your barrel has a 7 to 1 twist. Let no one talk out talk you out of a 7 twist.

Another thing is the trigger. We use a 2 stage trigger. The way it works is you pull most of the trigger weight on the first stage (you can feel it) and hold the first stage until we are ready to fire. The second stage takes a little more trigger pressure to set it off which sends your shot. If you shoot a M-1 Garand or M-1A they also have 2 stage triggers. About the cheapest 2 stage trigger for a AR worth anything is a Rock River NM 2 stage trigger.

Peakbagr · January 26, 2009, 08:42 PM

I'm primarily a pistol shooter who also shoots .22 Sporter rifle. I'd like to get into Highpower and the range next door to my club has a 600 yrd and 1000 yd range with lots of matches.
When the snow starts to melt, I'm hoping to get down to the matches to watch and listen. Been thinking about getting a RR AR15.
Someone who competes spent a few min speaking with me last week. He suggests a NM A2. They also make a NM A4.

Couple of questions. My eyes aren't what they once were and am leery of spending money of a decent rifle and then can't get a good sight picture of the sights and target. Do the matches allow front and rear sights with optical inserts? I'd also like to get a gun thats versatile enough for bench and hunting with a scope. Maybe with a swapable rail on top for a scope.
Any advice would be appreciated as I'd like to get a running start on a gun before the spring season begins in April.

Thanks

Casimer · January 26, 2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Do the matches allow front and rear sights with optical inserts?

Yes. Using those puts you into the match rifle class, as opposed to the service rifle class. Match rifle allows much more extensive customization of the rifle.

If your club has a 1000yd range, they may be running Palma and F-Class matches as well.

I think that the NM RRA's are good service rifles. But if you find that you need match rifle sights, a 2nd hand space gun may be a better option than upgrading a service rifle.

Tim R · January 27, 2009, 04:42 PM

I don't know about using a front lens on a Service rifle, But I can speak for a lens on the rear sight of a service rifle.

JB Jones makes a rear sight Aperture which holds a lens. It's cheap, works, but there is a problem. JB's lenses are not optically pure like you would find in glasses. Plus if there is any rain....the lens fogs up. I have a shooting buddie who bought a set up from JB at Perry in 07. He no longer uses it.

The better and more expensive way is to get a pair of Knoblochs or Champions and have your eye doctor grind you a lens. I have the Knoblochs with the shooting eye script taking a little power off my normal script. This gives me a clean crisp front post. The size of the rear aperture can also affect how well you see. On a bright sunny day I use a .36. If there is a small cloud in the sky I had better have a .40 in.

By the way w focus on the front sight just as you should be doing with your pistol. A RRA NM will take you to Master as they are about the best out of the box service rifle. I like 1/4 X 1/4 moa sight adjustments. The barrel on a RRA NM will be a Wilson with a Wylde chamber. The Wylde chamber eats every thing well.

Ken O · January 27, 2009, 10:05 PM

We have a few different questions going on here. If you are shooting in Service rifle for NRA or the CMP matches, you cannot use optics. The exception is the Bob Jones lens that fits into the rear sight hood. You still have to use a front post.

Bob Jones also now makes very inexpensive shooting glasses where he grinds your presciption on the corner of the lens. The frames are round, and he has a set screw in it so you can fine tune the area you are looking though to the sights by rotating the lens. He also will grind a magnifier in the bottom of the lens for us old guys to see the sight marks and writing in a scorebook. Here is a link: http://www.bjonessights.com/ I just ordered a pair, so I can't give a critique yet.

On the Rock River: the rifle will do just fine, good luck finding one right now. The A2 is what you want, the A4 works OK, but at 600 yards you will run out of elevation and have to tinker with the front sight.

I would suggest you get the RR lower, then order an upper from WOA. The upper has a few advantages for just a few more dollars. There is a tax advantage also, the luxury tax on firearms would be on the whole rife if you bougth the RR, but just on the lower if you bought a RR lower and put a WOA upper on it. The WOA has a great resale value also, they are snapped up when listed.

ShotgunerInPA · January 28, 2009, 11:57 AM

Lots of interesting info here. I'm also interested in taking up USPSA 3 Gun with an AR. Are the specs you folks listing here in line with that or is it overkill? I'm a rifle newb so could you explain the following:

What do you mean by highpower? Larger than 5.56?
Does IPSC have targets over 200yds?
I'm a southpaw and I hear Stag Arms is the only vendor making left handed ARs. That true? Do they provide 2 stage triggers?

Thanks in advance for the info.

Peakbagr · January 28, 2009, 07:51 PM

WOA ?

Ken O · January 28, 2009, 09:21 PM

WOA= White Oak Armament

Ken O · January 28, 2009, 09:35 PM

Shotgunner, High Power is a tyipe of competion, nothing to do with the caliber. The Stages are: Offhand (standing) slowfire at 200 yards. Rapid sitting at 200 yards. rapid prone at 300 yards, and slow prone at 600 yards. 20 shots at each stage makes up the 80 shot match.

Ipsc doesn't normally have shots over 200 yards.

Stag is the only one I know of that has left handed ARs, you can put any kind of trigger in it you want. If you use the left handed AR, it would be classed as a match rifle instead of a service rifle for NRA matches, and would not be legal for CMP competitions.

You would need to decide what competion you are going to shoot before building/buying a rifle. ISPC and NRA/CMP High Power are each specailized type of rifle build ups, you would be at a disadvantage or possible ilegal to buy an ISPC type AR and shoot it in NRA/CMP, and vice versa.

ShotgunerInPA · January 29, 2009, 07:45 AM

Thanks Ken, that was extremely helpful. I'm really just interested in getting an AR for IPSC so that will help me with my future purchase. You guys on this forum rock!

HJ857 · February 17, 2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

What kind of competition shooting can I get into with an AR?

There's a different competition that's pretty close to your location. A great deal more fun than bench shooting. But you'll want to study it a bit and observe a match or two before competing.

http://www.actshooters.com/

January 25, 2009, 10:04 AM	#1
sparkysteve Senior Member Join Date: December 26, 2005 Location: Byron Center, Michigan Posts: 418	AR-15 Competition? I'm thinking about building my first AR. Money's tight, but I want to buy a lower and buy parts as I can before the next AWB with my tax return. What kind of competition shooting can I get into with an AR? I'm mostly a hunting/plinking kind of guy but would like a good excuse to shoot my new toy. I usualy shoot at a friend's farm but live near this club: http://www.sksc.org __________________ I have ADHD........Attention, Defficit, Hey there goes a squirrel! Dont tread on me.

January 25, 2009, 12:00 PM	#2
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I think there is no finner place to learn to shoot an AR then in high power. I'm assuming since you said you are GOING TO build the gun you havent started yet. When choosing a barrel get one that has a 1-7 twist to shoot the heavier bullets needed at 600 and 1000 yards. They will also shoot the cheaper 55 grins for plinking and 100 yard reduced HP practiced. All states have State Rifle and Pistol Clubs that shoot high power, Most have High Power Clinics to get you started. Check out the CMP web site for a list of clubs in your area. Also the CMP (Civilian Marksmanship Program) Sells THE SERVICE RIFLE GUIDE put out by the USAMU, the best shooters in the world. This guide cost $6.95 and will get you well on the way to competition shooting. Regardless of what you end up shooting, High Power will give you the fundamentals that you need. Whether you desided to shoot HP, Multi or 3 gun matches. Also you'll never find a greater bunch of guys then high power shooter. They are more then willing to jump in and help a new shooter on his way. Have fun and good luck with you build. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

January 26, 2009, 04:34 PM	#4
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	Like the other have said "High Power". If you shoot high power, you will learn several things and become a better overall shot. It will improve your hunting rifle abilites. Plus, the High Power guys are a great group of guys always willing to help out a new guy. And like the other have already said MAKE SURE your barrel has a 7 to 1 twist. Let no one talk out talk you out of a 7 twist. Another thing is the trigger. We use a 2 stage trigger. The way it works is you pull most of the trigger weight on the first stage (you can feel it) and hold the first stage until we are ready to fire. The second stage takes a little more trigger pressure to set it off which sends your shot. If you shoot a M-1 Garand or M-1A they also have 2 stage triggers. About the cheapest 2 stage trigger for a AR worth anything is a Rock River NM 2 stage trigger. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers. Last edited by Tim R; January 26, 2009 at 04:43 PM.

January 27, 2009, 04:42 PM	#7
Tim R Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2004 Location: God's side of Washington State Posts: 1,601	I don't know about using a front lens on a Service rifle, But I can speak for a lens on the rear sight of a service rifle. JB Jones makes a rear sight Aperture which holds a lens. It's cheap, works, but there is a problem. JB's lenses are not optically pure like you would find in glasses. Plus if there is any rain....the lens fogs up. I have a shooting buddie who bought a set up from JB at Perry in 07. He no longer uses it. The better and more expensive way is to get a pair of Knoblochs or Champions and have your eye doctor grind you a lens. I have the Knoblochs with the shooting eye script taking a little power off my normal script. This gives me a clean crisp front post. The size of the rear aperture can also affect how well you see. On a bright sunny day I use a .36. If there is a small cloud in the sky I had better have a .40 in. By the way w focus on the front sight just as you should be doing with your pistol. A RRA NM will take you to Master as they are about the best out of the box service rifle. I like 1/4 X 1/4 moa sight adjustments. The barrel on a RRA NM will be a Wilson with a Wylde chamber. The Wylde chamber eats every thing well. __________________ God Bless our Troops especially our Snipers. Last edited by Tim R; January 27, 2009 at 04:49 PM.

January 28, 2009, 11:57 AM	#9
ShotgunerInPA Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2008 Posts: 3	Questions on replies Lots of interesting info here. I'm also interested in taking up USPSA 3 Gun with an AR. Are the specs you folks listing here in line with that or is it overkill? I'm a rifle newb so could you explain the following: What do you mean by highpower? Larger than 5.56? Does IPSC have targets over 200yds? I'm a southpaw and I hear Stag Arms is the only vendor making left handed ARs. That true? Do they provide 2 stage triggers? Thanks in advance for the info.

January 25, 2009, 04:02 PM	#3
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	I agree with the post above, High Power is the way to go. You are in driving distance from a few clubs with a XTC 600 yard range. I have shot ISPC at South Kent, but I don't think they have pits for a rifle range. Cadillac, Fort Custer, Port Huron, and Washtenaw come to mind right now for XTC matches to 600 yards. Add in Midland for 600 yard prone matches (but no XTC 200 300). At Camp Grayling we shoot 800, 900, and 1000 yards. Muskegon also has 200 with pits, but I havent shot there. The 7 twist barrel is what you need, also a float tube if your building your own. I would keep it Sevice Rifle legal so you can shoot CMP matches also. Watch the MR&P Michigan Rifle and pistol Association website, the 2009 schedule for most clubs in the state will be on there. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know. My home club is Cadillac, but shoot all over, and can probably put you in touch with the club you might want to shoot at. You would be very welcome to come up to Cadillac. Ken

January 26, 2009, 08:42 PM	#5
Peakbagr Member Join Date: April 22, 2005 Posts: 22	I'm primarily a pistol shooter who also shoots .22 Sporter rifle. I'd like to get into Highpower and the range next door to my club has a 600 yrd and 1000 yd range with lots of matches. When the snow starts to melt, I'm hoping to get down to the matches to watch and listen. Been thinking about getting a RR AR15. Someone who competes spent a few min speaking with me last week. He suggests a NM A2. They also make a NM A4. Couple of questions. My eyes aren't what they once were and am leery of spending money of a decent rifle and then can't get a good sight picture of the sights and target. Do the matches allow front and rear sights with optical inserts? I'd also like to get a gun thats versatile enough for bench and hunting with a scope. Maybe with a swapable rail on top for a scope. Any advice would be appreciated as I'd like to get a running start on a gun before the spring season begins in April. Thanks

January 27, 2009, 10:05 PM	#8
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	We have a few different questions going on here. If you are shooting in Service rifle for NRA or the CMP matches, you cannot use optics. The exception is the Bob Jones lens that fits into the rear sight hood. You still have to use a front post. Bob Jones also now makes very inexpensive shooting glasses where he grinds your presciption on the corner of the lens. The frames are round, and he has a set screw in it so you can fine tune the area you are looking though to the sights by rotating the lens. He also will grind a magnifier in the bottom of the lens for us old guys to see the sight marks and writing in a scorebook. Here is a link: http://www.bjonessights.com/ I just ordered a pair, so I can't give a critique yet. On the Rock River: the rifle will do just fine, good luck finding one right now. The A2 is what you want, the A4 works OK, but at 600 yards you will run out of elevation and have to tinker with the front sight. I would suggest you get the RR lower, then order an upper from WOA. The upper has a few advantages for just a few more dollars. There is a tax advantage also, the luxury tax on firearms would be on the whole rife if you bougth the RR, but just on the lower if you bought a RR lower and put a WOA upper on it. The WOA has a great resale value also, they are snapped up when listed.

January 28, 2009, 07:51 PM	#10
Peakbagr Member Join Date: April 22, 2005 Posts: 22	WOA ?

January 28, 2009, 09:21 PM	#11
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	WOA= White Oak Armament

January 28, 2009, 09:35 PM	#12
Ken O Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Half way between Grayling and Cadillac, Michigan Posts: 353	Shotgunner, High Power is a tyipe of competion, nothing to do with the caliber. The Stages are: Offhand (standing) slowfire at 200 yards. Rapid sitting at 200 yards. rapid prone at 300 yards, and slow prone at 600 yards. 20 shots at each stage makes up the 80 shot match. Ipsc doesn't normally have shots over 200 yards. Stag is the only one I know of that has left handed ARs, you can put any kind of trigger in it you want. If you use the left handed AR, it would be classed as a match rifle instead of a service rifle for NRA matches, and would not be legal for CMP competitions. You would need to decide what competion you are going to shoot before building/buying a rifle. ISPC and NRA/CMP High Power are each specailized type of rifle build ups, you would be at a disadvantage or possible ilegal to buy an ISPC type AR and shoot it in NRA/CMP, and vice versa.

January 29, 2009, 07:45 AM	#13
ShotgunerInPA Junior Member Join Date: June 10, 2008 Posts: 3	AR building Thanks Ken, that was extremely helpful. I'm really just interested in getting an AR for IPSC so that will help me with my future purchase. You guys on this forum rock!