new to reloading with new brass and collett die

mikeinfwa · January 23, 2002, 10:19 AM

I'm just getting started into the reloading world.

My setup is:

Remington 700 LTR .308 (NIB)
Lee 35th anniversery kit
Lee collett .308 die
4895 surplus powder
WC 846 surplus powder
200 pieces Federal Gold Medal brass 308 winchester
200 pieces Sierra HPBT Match 168 grain
100 pieces pulled 173 grain FMJBT military sniper match
no primers yet

I 've learned that the collett die is the way to go for bolt rifles and brass that has been fired in your rifle.

My question is....

Will the collett die work with new unfired brass or will I need a different die?

thanks,

mike

Art Eatman · January 23, 2002, 10:43 AM

For no particular reason, I've been using Winchester LR primers, the last ten-fifteen years or so...

I've not used the Lee stuff. Is this collet die a sizing or a seating die? I doubt a seating die would care about new or fired brass, and new brass doesn't need to be sized.

Since you're using a bolt-action, you only need to resize the neck of the fired case, not the whole thing.

Art

Bogie · January 23, 2002, 12:26 PM

What I'd do...

If you have a chance, take the collet die apart, and gently deburr it a little - don't hit it too hard. Now, sprinkle it with some moly or tungsten disulphide, and work it in a little, and reassemble it. It'll work much smoother that way.

If your scale will go up high enough, weight sort your brass. Otherwise, just inspect it for obvious flaws, such as off-center flash holes (you can do this while uniforming too).

Okay, take 20 pieces of the brass to start with. Run the brass into the collet dies so that you'll get a good bullet grip. Uniform the primer pockets, deburr the insides, and prime. Load 40 grains of the 4985 (and call the powder guy, and order a few more jugs...), with the 173 grainers on top. Load 'em so that they're jammed into the lands about 0.015".

If you don't have one, go out and buy a bore guide, preferably a Lucas (see Hoehn Sales at www.benchrest.com), and a one piece cleaning rod (some folks like coated, some uncoated - I use a pro-shot). Clean the barrel VERY good. Give the bore a light coat of light oil. Fire the first round. Clean the bore (3 patches soaked with Butch's, 10 strokes with a benchrest-grade bronze brush, let it set for a couple of minutes, three soaked patches, three dry patches).

Follow with a patch of Sweet's and if there is any color on the patch, clean it again, and then check with the Sweet's. YOU HAVE TO USE A COPPER SOLVENT TO CLEAN. Hoppes ain't gonna do the trick. Oh, and DO NOT use Shooter's Choice with Sweet's.

Now that you have a perfectly clean barrel, oil it again, and fire the second shot. Repeat cleaning process. Do this for five shots total. Then shoot a three shot group, and clean, until you have fired all 20.

You've now got 20 rounds of fireformed brass. Size 'em in the collet die, turning 'em 180 degrees, and sizing 'em again. Clean the primer pocket with your uniforming tool. Trim the brass to a uniform length (you won't have to do this often with the collet dies - I use a Wilson trimmer), and chamfer and deburr the case mouth.

Start at 39-40 grains of the 4895 with the matchkings, with the bullet just touching the lands, and work up in one-half grain increments. Do this at 200 yards. You'll see your groups closing up. When they're tightest, you're at your barrel's sweet spot.

Bogie · January 23, 2002, 04:23 PM

Because my gunsmith says to...

(grin)

Actually, he won three out of four of the major aggregates at the 1999 NBRSA Nationals, so I pay attention to him...

the theory is that it helps the pressure of the round being forced down the barrel "smooth" the steel, rather than just break off the rough edges. I know that after doing this, my barrels clean real easy.

Poodleshooter · January 23, 2002, 04:23 PM

The collet die may not work if the brass is not sized correctly in the first place, and/or has not been fired in your rifle. Once they've gone through your chamber, it will work fine. Try this: take one of those cases, and single feed it into your chamber. Close the bolt. Does it fit? If so, odds are you're fine loading them up without sizing in a full length die. If not, try neck sizing with that collet die. Repeat test. Does it fit in the chamber? If not, get a Full length die (One of Lee's RGB die sets would work fine.)

Bogie · January 23, 2002, 05:23 PM

Unless you're turning your necks, the collet die is quite likely your best bet. And new, factory-spec brass will probably work okay.

Now, if you want to go whole hog, turned necks, etc., you should really have a tight neck chamber. Otherwise, you've got a lot of slop in there, even with only neck sizing.

Now, if you want to FL size (reliability, etc.) here's how to do it the RIGHT way...

Call Sinclair's and get a firing pin removal tool for your bolt. You want to be able to take the guts out, and just put the bolt in the action, with it turning very freely.

Now, take a fired case, deprime it, and feel how it chambers. You've got to shove the bolt down, right?

Lube the case (I like tru-kote or imperial die wax), and with your FL sizing die unscrewed a couple of turns, size it. Wipe it off, and chamber it. Still hard, right? Screw the die in about a quarter turn, repeat. You may want to do 1/8 turn increments... When the bolt drops with just a "little" feel, you're FL sizing the minimum amount. Any more is wasted, and is hard on your brass. secure the die's locking collar, and you're set (at least for that rifle - I buy new dies for each factory rifle (my BR 'smith cuts the chambers very close to identical).

this is also safer, since you'll be less likely to run into a headspace condition that could result in a head sep...

mikeinfwa · January 25, 2002, 10:07 AM

Thanks for the info

I thought reloading was less complicated. hehe

sounds like I have some more reading to do.

mike

Bogie · January 25, 2002, 11:29 AM

Well, I shoot benchrest, and get a little anal about a few things...

Way I figure it, if you're gonna do something, do it right... Too many folks just dump powder and jam a bullet in the case, and that's good enough to hit Bambi or a beer can at 50 yards, so they're happy...

mikeinfwa · January 29, 2002, 11:59 AM

Bogie,

I have 200 rounds of reloadable 7.62 x 51 hertenburger.

This is for the M1A only. I have a full size LEE die for this rifle.

the reloading info i have only refers to .308 and civilian brass.
Do you have the specs (min and max length etc) for loading 150 grain, 168 grain 173 grain with 4895 surplus powder? If not, what manual has the data on both .308 and 7.62 x 51?

thanks,

mike

PS. I found a book from Midway called "the complete reloading manual for the .308 winchester". would this have everything i need for both .308 and 7.62?

Bogie · January 30, 2002, 01:49 PM

Start at your max OAL for your rifle/magazine, start at around 39 grains (for 4895), and work up.

Double check this, tho, with a REAL manual. Don't use any really "slow" powders, such as 4350, with a semi-auto.

January 23, 2002, 10:19 AM	#1
mikeinfwa Member Join Date: January 23, 2002 Posts: 30	new to reloading with new brass and collett die I'm just getting started into the reloading world. My setup is: Remington 700 LTR .308 (NIB) Lee 35th anniversery kit Lee collett .308 die 4895 surplus powder WC 846 surplus powder 200 pieces Federal Gold Medal brass 308 winchester 200 pieces Sierra HPBT Match 168 grain 100 pieces pulled 173 grain FMJBT military sniper match no primers yet I 've learned that the collett die is the way to go for bolt rifles and brass that has been fired in your rifle. My question is.... Will the collett die work with new unfired brass or will I need a different die? thanks, mike

January 23, 2002, 12:26 PM	#3
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	What I'd do... If you have a chance, take the collet die apart, and gently deburr it a little - don't hit it too hard. Now, sprinkle it with some moly or tungsten disulphide, and work it in a little, and reassemble it. It'll work much smoother that way. If your scale will go up high enough, weight sort your brass. Otherwise, just inspect it for obvious flaws, such as off-center flash holes (you can do this while uniforming too). Okay, take 20 pieces of the brass to start with. Run the brass into the collet dies so that you'll get a good bullet grip. Uniform the primer pockets, deburr the insides, and prime. Load 40 grains of the 4985 (and call the powder guy, and order a few more jugs...), with the 173 grainers on top. Load 'em so that they're jammed into the lands about 0.015". If you don't have one, go out and buy a bore guide, preferably a Lucas (see Hoehn Sales at www.benchrest.com), and a one piece cleaning rod (some folks like coated, some uncoated - I use a pro-shot). Clean the barrel VERY good. Give the bore a light coat of light oil. Fire the first round. Clean the bore (3 patches soaked with Butch's, 10 strokes with a benchrest-grade bronze brush, let it set for a couple of minutes, three soaked patches, three dry patches). Follow with a patch of Sweet's and if there is any color on the patch, clean it again, and then check with the Sweet's. YOU HAVE TO USE A COPPER SOLVENT TO CLEAN. Hoppes ain't gonna do the trick. Oh, and DO NOT use Shooter's Choice with Sweet's. Now that you have a perfectly clean barrel, oil it again, and fire the second shot. Repeat cleaning process. Do this for five shots total. Then shoot a three shot group, and clean, until you have fired all 20. You've now got 20 rounds of fireformed brass. Size 'em in the collet die, turning 'em 180 degrees, and sizing 'em again. Clean the primer pocket with your uniforming tool. Trim the brass to a uniform length (you won't have to do this often with the collet dies - I use a Wilson trimmer), and chamfer and deburr the case mouth. Start at 39-40 grains of the 4895 with the matchkings, with the bullet just touching the lands, and work up in one-half grain increments. Do this at 200 yards. You'll see your groups closing up. When they're tightest, you're at your barrel's sweet spot. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

January 23, 2002, 04:23 PM	#4
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Because my gunsmith says to... (grin) Actually, he won three out of four of the major aggregates at the 1999 NBRSA Nationals, so I pay attention to him... the theory is that it helps the pressure of the round being forced down the barrel "smooth" the steel, rather than just break off the rough edges. I know that after doing this, my barrels clean real easy. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

January 23, 2002, 05:23 PM	#6
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Unless you're turning your necks, the collet die is quite likely your best bet. And new, factory-spec brass will probably work okay. Now, if you want to go whole hog, turned necks, etc., you should really have a tight neck chamber. Otherwise, you've got a lot of slop in there, even with only neck sizing. Now, if you want to FL size (reliability, etc.) here's how to do it the RIGHT way... Call Sinclair's and get a firing pin removal tool for your bolt. You want to be able to take the guts out, and just put the bolt in the action, with it turning very freely. Now, take a fired case, deprime it, and feel how it chambers. You've got to shove the bolt down, right? Lube the case (I like tru-kote or imperial die wax), and with your FL sizing die unscrewed a couple of turns, size it. Wipe it off, and chamber it. Still hard, right? Screw the die in about a quarter turn, repeat. You may want to do 1/8 turn increments... When the bolt drops with just a "little" feel, you're FL sizing the minimum amount. Any more is wasted, and is hard on your brass. secure the die's locking collar, and you're set (at least for that rifle - I buy new dies for each factory rifle (my BR 'smith cuts the chambers very close to identical). this is also safer, since you'll be less likely to run into a headspace condition that could result in a head sep... __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

January 25, 2002, 11:29 AM	#8
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Well, I shoot benchrest, and get a little anal about a few things... Way I figure it, if you're gonna do something, do it right... Too many folks just dump powder and jam a bullet in the case, and that's good enough to hit Bambi or a beer can at 50 yards, so they're happy... __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

January 23, 2002, 10:43 AM	#2
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	For no particular reason, I've been using Winchester LR primers, the last ten-fifteen years or so... I've not used the Lee stuff. Is this collet die a sizing or a seating die? I doubt a seating die would care about new or fired brass, and new brass doesn't need to be sized. Since you're using a bolt-action, you only need to resize the neck of the fired case, not the whole thing. Art

January 23, 2002, 04:23 PM	#5
Poodleshooter Senior Member Join Date: August 7, 2000 Location: Floating down the James River in VA Posts: 2,599	The collet die may not work if the brass is not sized correctly in the first place, and/or has not been fired in your rifle. Once they've gone through your chamber, it will work fine. Try this: take one of those cases, and single feed it into your chamber. Close the bolt. Does it fit? If so, odds are you're fine loading them up without sizing in a full length die. If not, try neck sizing with that collet die. Repeat test. Does it fit in the chamber? If not, get a Full length die (One of Lee's RGB die sets would work fine.)

January 25, 2002, 10:07 AM	#7
mikeinfwa Member Join Date: January 23, 2002 Posts: 30	Thanks for the info I thought reloading was less complicated. hehe sounds like I have some more reading to do. mike

January 29, 2002, 11:59 AM	#9
mikeinfwa Member Join Date: January 23, 2002 Posts: 30	follow up Bogie, I have 200 rounds of reloadable 7.62 x 51 hertenburger. This is for the M1A only. I have a full size LEE die for this rifle. the reloading info i have only refers to .308 and civilian brass. Do you have the specs (min and max length etc) for loading 150 grain, 168 grain 173 grain with 4895 surplus powder? If not, what manual has the data on both .308 and 7.62 x 51? thanks, mike PS. I found a book from Midway called "the complete reloading manual for the .308 winchester". would this have everything i need for both .308 and 7.62?

January 30, 2002, 01:49 PM	#10
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Start at your max OAL for your rifle/magazine, start at around 39 grains (for 4895), and work up. Double check this, tho, with a REAL manual. Don't use any really "slow" powders, such as 4350, with a semi-auto. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!