Defense weapon; rifle vs shotgun

mr00jimbo · September 16, 2006, 03:04 PM

I was always told that a 12 gauge with 00 or 000 buck would be the best for a home invader or self defense purposes. However I have heard some skeptics, mostly those who do not know much about guns but still like to talk, say that a shotgun "is only effective for like, ten feet"

Now, I don't think there's much argument that a 00 or 000 buckshot in a 12 gauge would provide more then enough stopping power to take out a criminal if it came down to it...but what about animals?

It wouldn't be my primary choice to hunt but when it comes to hunting four legged critters, I want to bring my shotgun as a back up (i.e if we're black bear hunting and i get attacked along the way, something to sufficiently fend 'em off with)

People have told me that they'd much prefer a RIFLE to a shotgun in the home because it has much more power. But i can see the downside being overpenetration? Is this only true of bullets, or do slugs fall into said catagory too?

Now, i love my 870 and it makes me upset when people badmouth shotguns, second guess their range, power and versatility. Theoretically, what would be the effective lethal range for hunting with a rifled barrel (compared to a smooth one) when shotgun hunting? And how big of game would you suppose a shotgun could hunt, or successfully "stop" if it came down to a life or death type situation?

Also, why do shotguns, even those with rifled barrels, seem to have much shorter range than just rifles? They seem to lose energy very quickly, but why?

**Bud Helms** · September 16, 2006, 03:31 PM

kinetic energy = a product of mass and velocity

KE = 0.5 x projectile mass x projectile velocity squared

The mass of the projectile (or projectiles) is directly proportional to an increase in energy. The velocity value, however, is squared, so a projectiles mass can be increased by 100% and the energy will double. The projectile velocity can be increased by 100% and the energy will increase by four. Rifles are high velocity weapons compared to shotguns.

Shotguns have lower muzzle velocity and what velocity there is drops off quickly because of the higher mass of it's projectile(s). But I wouldn't say a shotgun lacks energy. It just doesn't retain it like a rifle.

BUT, this will get explained NUMEROUS times before this thread is over.

By the way, title notwithstanding, this thread topic needs to go to the Handloading and Reloading forum for the best discussion and answers.

gac009 · September 16, 2006, 04:50 PM

In video games the effective range of a shotgun is usually something in the area of 10 feet so perhaps your ignorant buddies are getting their "expierence" from games.

Why dont you take your friends out and let them see how it patterns at "like ten feet", bet they'll be suprised.

Seems to me that pellets would lack the penetration for something like a bear, but slugs would be my first choice.

DanV1317 · September 16, 2006, 05:00 PM

I dont think i'd mind a pistol in a home invasion type situation. Easy to meneuver, i train with it along with all diferent types of ways to react using my pistol if attacked or brought into a hand to hand situation and so on.

If for whatever reason somebody in a home invasion gets attacked from a BG coming around a corner or whatever, it's much easier to have your muzzle averted using a long gun than a pistol. If they get my pistol, there are a number of ways to break them loose from the gun. It'd be hard to get a shot off with a shotgun if the guy is at bad breath distance (i know you shouldnt let him get there, but crap happens).

**Bud Helms** · September 16, 2006, 05:02 PM

Good point. I didn't even answer that part ... "is only effective for like, ten feet" is a little silly. Even a light load of #11 or #12 bird shot at ten feet ... oh my!

Yes, a shotgun is actually an excellent home defense weapon. The pellets will slow down quickly with contact with sheet rock and wall studs, but it isn't harmless and it's surely effective waaay past ten feet.

kc-griz · September 16, 2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

mostly those who do not know much about guns but still like to talk, say that a shotgun "is only effective for like, ten feet"

LMAO!! Next time you hear a moronic statement similar to that, take a crisp $100 bill out of your wallet, offer it to the mental midget and tell them to stand at double the distance, 20' while you shoot even a light load of say... #8 at them much less 00 buckshot. Tell them if they can walk away, they can have the $100! Bet you don't get a single taker...

A couple weeks ago, I did a little clay target shooting with the O/U. After I was done, I broke out the shorty Mossberg w/pistol grip. Loaded some 7-1/2 shot in it and was breaking 4 out of 5 clays. For kicks and grins, I loaded som 00 buckshot... lets just say clay targets vaporize into dust at 30 yards!

gac009 · September 16, 2006, 08:25 PM

Offering to shoot people who disagree with me usually just makes me look like a crazy gun nut

Try to educate them....and talk slow. They likely wont get what you are saying, and if they pull up next to you at your range just call it a day and go home.

Awhile ago I had a frequent customer who works at a flea market come into the store and tell me that he pulled his 1911 on a kid who was shoplifting.

Then he explained to me that the .45 acp was such a large bullet that the its force would knock a large man flat on his back. He also went into detail about how the .45 was developed by Colt but the bullets themselves weren't made by Colt. I know this is true but I diddnt understand why he made such a big deal about it. Anyway I explained to him nice and slow using basic physics if a .45 acp could knock someone down then the shooter would also be knocked down. I dont think he understood me because he gave me a funny mean look and walked away silent.

He came to me the other day talking about his 1911 again, seems hes impressed with the fact that his has an 11 round mag. I asked him if it was reliable, he made a puzzled expression and said "I bought it at a garage sale". I dont think he has ever shot his 1911.

Moral of the story: some people dont know sqat about guns, these are people that dont really want to know because that would cause them to think and that is hard for them. These people lack basic skills but they also own guns and trying to explain things to them just gives everyone a headache.

If they do want to learn and are just misinformed, awesome.

OBIWAN · September 18, 2006, 04:24 PM

Most loads will not pattern at "like 10 feet"

They will create one ragged hole that both the shot and the wad will go through

Which is why the popular opinion that a shotgun is ultimate for HD because "you can't miss" is just another urban legend

A carbine will generally be less prone to overpenetration than a shotgun

And easier to manage with one hand

But either will do their part if you do yours

Scorch · September 18, 2006, 05:09 PM

I agree that the people saying that a shotgun is only good for 10 feet have never seen anything get shot with a shotgun at 70 yards (210 ft). Even if they had, would they really understand wht it's all about? Even alot of people who shoot and should know better say stupid things like bird shot won't hurt you past 80 yds (a #7-1/2 pellet has enough energy to pierce skin at about 170 yds, IIRC). Our fearless VP demonstrated what birdshot can do at 40 yds last year (pellets lodged in his hunting companion's heart).

Shotguns are not as bad for overpenetration as a rifle, but they can still go through several walls with buckshot. There are numerous tests about this available to read.

While I will agree that a rifle is much preferable to buckshot for taking down animals, 00 buckshot will kill a deer (I suppose also a human) at 100 yds. That the pattern is about 10 feet wide by the time it gets there is irrelevant, it will still get there. It would also be way low due to drop at that range, but it will get there.

Slugs likewise, blunt and wobbly though they are, will still kill effectively out to 150-200 yds, they just have the aerodynamics of a brick. They lose energy very quickly because they are not aerodynamic (big and blunt), but very quickly is a relative term. If you were shot with one at 150 yds it would still ruin your day.

How large of an animal can you down with a shotgun? In Africa, paradox guns (rifled shotguns) were common firearms for settlers and natives alike, so I would presume they work on game up to wildebeest or eland(???). Maybe not a long-range, high-powered rifle, but big, slow, and a big hole. You just have to get a little closer.

Just a little over a century ago, rifles and shotguns were both considered about equally deadly. With high velocity and measuring energy in ft-lbs, they seem pretty anemic, but other energy indices show them to be very effective.

gac009 · September 18, 2006, 06:42 PM

"Most loads will not pattern at "like 10 feet" "

exactly

I suspect that the OP was talking to people who havnt even shot a shotgun.

September 18, 2006, 05:09 PM	#9
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I agree that the people saying that a shotgun is only good for 10 feet have never seen anything get shot with a shotgun at 70 yards (210 ft). Even if they had, would they really understand wht it's all about? Even alot of people who shoot and should know better say stupid things like bird shot won't hurt you past 80 yds (a #7-1/2 pellet has enough energy to pierce skin at about 170 yds, IIRC). Our fearless VP demonstrated what birdshot can do at 40 yds last year (pellets lodged in his hunting companion's heart). Shotguns are not as bad for overpenetration as a rifle, but they can still go through several walls with buckshot. There are numerous tests about this available to read. While I will agree that a rifle is much preferable to buckshot for taking down animals, 00 buckshot will kill a deer (I suppose also a human) at 100 yds. That the pattern is about 10 feet wide by the time it gets there is irrelevant, it will still get there. It would also be way low due to drop at that range, but it will get there. Slugs likewise, blunt and wobbly though they are, will still kill effectively out to 150-200 yds, they just have the aerodynamics of a brick. They lose energy very quickly because they are not aerodynamic (big and blunt), but very quickly is a relative term. If you were shot with one at 150 yds it would still ruin your day. How large of an animal can you down with a shotgun? In Africa, paradox guns (rifled shotguns) were common firearms for settlers and natives alike, so I would presume they work on game up to wildebeest or eland(???). Maybe not a long-range, high-powered rifle, but big, slow, and a big hole. You just have to get a little closer. Just a little over a century ago, rifles and shotguns were both considered about equally deadly. With high velocity and measuring energy in ft-lbs, they seem pretty anemic, but other energy indices show them to be very effective. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

September 16, 2006, 03:04 PM	#1
mr00jimbo Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2005 Posts: 175	Defense weapon; rifle vs shotgun I was always told that a 12 gauge with 00 or 000 buck would be the best for a home invader or self defense purposes. However I have heard some skeptics, mostly those who do not know much about guns but still like to talk, say that a shotgun "is only effective for like, ten feet" Now, I don't think there's much argument that a 00 or 000 buckshot in a 12 gauge would provide more then enough stopping power to take out a criminal if it came down to it...but what about animals? It wouldn't be my primary choice to hunt but when it comes to hunting four legged critters, I want to bring my shotgun as a back up (i.e if we're black bear hunting and i get attacked along the way, something to sufficiently fend 'em off with) People have told me that they'd much prefer a RIFLE to a shotgun in the home because it has much more power. But i can see the downside being overpenetration? Is this only true of bullets, or do slugs fall into said catagory too? Now, i love my 870 and it makes me upset when people badmouth shotguns, second guess their range, power and versatility. Theoretically, what would be the effective lethal range for hunting with a rifled barrel (compared to a smooth one) when shotgun hunting? And how big of game would you suppose a shotgun could hunt, or successfully "stop" if it came down to a life or death type situation? Also, why do shotguns, even those with rifled barrels, seem to have much shorter range than just rifles? They seem to lose energy very quickly, but why?

September 16, 2006, 03:31 PM	#2
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	kinetic energy = a product of mass and velocity KE = 0.5 x projectile mass x projectile velocity squared The mass of the projectile (or projectiles) is directly proportional to an increase in energy. The velocity value, however, is squared, so a projectiles mass can be increased by 100% and the energy will double. The projectile velocity can be increased by 100% and the energy will increase by four. Rifles are high velocity weapons compared to shotguns. Shotguns have lower muzzle velocity and what velocity there is drops off quickly because of the higher mass of it's projectile(s). But I wouldn't say a shotgun lacks energy. It just doesn't retain it like a rifle. BUT, this will get explained NUMEROUS times before this thread is over. By the way, title notwithstanding, this thread topic needs to go to the Handloading and Reloading forum for the best discussion and answers.

September 16, 2006, 04:50 PM	#3
gac009 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2006 Posts: 430	In video games the effective range of a shotgun is usually something in the area of 10 feet so perhaps your ignorant buddies are getting their "expierence" from games. Why dont you take your friends out and let them see how it patterns at "like ten feet", bet they'll be suprised. Seems to me that pellets would lack the penetration for something like a bear, but slugs would be my first choice.

September 16, 2006, 05:00 PM	#4
DanV1317 Senior Member Join Date: August 27, 2004 Posts: 331	I dont think i'd mind a pistol in a home invasion type situation. Easy to meneuver, i train with it along with all diferent types of ways to react using my pistol if attacked or brought into a hand to hand situation and so on. If for whatever reason somebody in a home invasion gets attacked from a BG coming around a corner or whatever, it's much easier to have your muzzle averted using a long gun than a pistol. If they get my pistol, there are a number of ways to break them loose from the gun. It'd be hard to get a shot off with a shotgun if the guy is at bad breath distance (i know you shouldnt let him get there, but crap happens).

September 16, 2006, 05:02 PM	#5
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Good point. I didn't even answer that part ... "is only effective for like, ten feet" is a little silly. Even a light load of #11 or #12 bird shot at ten feet ... oh my! Yes, a shotgun is actually an excellent home defense weapon. The pellets will slow down quickly with contact with sheet rock and wall studs, but it isn't harmless and it's surely effective waaay past ten feet.

September 16, 2006, 08:25 PM	#7
gac009 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2006 Posts: 430	Offering to shoot people who disagree with me usually just makes me look like a crazy gun nut Try to educate them....and talk slow. They likely wont get what you are saying, and if they pull up next to you at your range just call it a day and go home. Awhile ago I had a frequent customer who works at a flea market come into the store and tell me that he pulled his 1911 on a kid who was shoplifting. Then he explained to me that the .45 acp was such a large bullet that the its force would knock a large man flat on his back. He also went into detail about how the .45 was developed by Colt but the bullets themselves weren't made by Colt. I know this is true but I diddnt understand why he made such a big deal about it. Anyway I explained to him nice and slow using basic physics if a .45 acp could knock someone down then the shooter would also be knocked down. I dont think he understood me because he gave me a funny mean look and walked away silent. He came to me the other day talking about his 1911 again, seems hes impressed with the fact that his has an 11 round mag. I asked him if it was reliable, he made a puzzled expression and said "I bought it at a garage sale". I dont think he has ever shot his 1911. Moral of the story: some people dont know sqat about guns, these are people that dont really want to know because that would cause them to think and that is hard for them. These people lack basic skills but they also own guns and trying to explain things to them just gives everyone a headache. If they do want to learn and are just misinformed, awesome.

September 18, 2006, 04:24 PM	#8
OBIWAN Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 1999 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,340	Most loads will not pattern at "like 10 feet" They will create one ragged hole that both the shot and the wad will go through Which is why the popular opinion that a shotgun is ultimate for HD because "you can't miss" is just another urban legend A carbine will generally be less prone to overpenetration than a shotgun And easier to manage with one hand But either will do their part if you do yours

September 18, 2006, 06:42 PM	#10
gac009 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2006 Posts: 430	"Most loads will not pattern at "like 10 feet" " exactly I suspect that the OP was talking to people who havnt even shot a shotgun.