I want to make my revolver competition friendly ...Help!

Mike_In_MD · January 9, 2008, 09:42 AM

I have a Taurus Model 65 that I want to use for informal Bullseye shooting and I want a lighter double action trigger pull. I have other pistols to shoot bullseye (45 ACP and a Model 41) so please refrain from any don't use a revolver comments.

Here's the problem. I can shoot it single action and hold the 10 ring just fine for slow fire, but I plan to shoot it double action for Timed and Rapid fire and that Double action pull is way too much using my pointer finger on the trigger. Using my middle finger on the trigger my wobble area on the target is much smaller, but I want a lighter trigger to improve my scores.

Can anybody point me in the right direction on the parts to buy, where to buy them, and modification procedure?

**Unclenick** · January 9, 2008, 01:50 PM

Mike,

The old timers always shot timed and rapid single-action. They claimed thumbing the hammer helped them get the sights back on target, and preferred this to self-loaders. Based on that advice, I used my Dan Wesson single-action for the centerfire stage in formal matches for awhile, and found it did reasonably well. Double-action is tougher to learn, but learn it you can. I just find it works far better with a two-handed hold because the greater range of finger motion causes the moving tendons in the palm of my trigger-pulling hand to influence the sight alignment stability more.

All that said, you are welcome to do it however you please. What you need is a revolver tuning job. Anyone who can tune a Smith & Wesson revolver should be able to handle a Taurus. A lot of the best DA revolver smiths are gone. When law enforcement moved to self-loaders, interest in the DA wheel guns fell off sharply. Their resurgence in hunting hasn't affected this greatly since hunting is mostly shooting single-action. So, I don't have a name for you, but take a look at Midway's gunsmith locator.

If you want to do it yourself, you are into the usual suspects. Start with Brownells for parts. They should be able to sell you a copy of Kuhnhausen's book on S&W revolvers, which you ought to read if you've never worked on anything like this. Let me caution you about some of the quick fixes, like a lightened mainspring. I put one in my Dan Wesson and proceeded to get intermittant ignition failures. It's much better to get the DA smoothed up first, then approach spring tension gradually.

Mike_In_MD · January 9, 2008, 02:40 PM

The do it yourself route with lighter springs is how I want to go. I think it's worth a try if the springs are cheap. At worse case I can put the old springs back in. That book suggestion is worth checking into...thanks.

James K · January 9, 2008, 03:08 PM

Try www.gunsprings.com (Wolff's). They sell a Shooters Pack Stock No. 17190 for $10.50, which should have what you need. Also, stone the trigger and other areas just enough to remove sharp edges and rough spots. Be careful - the parts are case hardened, so if you cut through the very thin surface hardness, you can ruin the part.

Even with the lighter springs, you will probably not be able to fire DA using the first pad of your index finger, as you would firing SA. You will have to use the middle pad or the first joint. If you have to use the middle finger, I would say forget DA firing as it is too easy to get your index finger where the gas from the barrel-cylinder gap will burn it.

Jim

Mike_In_MD · January 9, 2008, 06:18 PM

Thanks..I just placed an order for those springs.

BTW, since the trigger breaks like glass on single action I'll probably will not need to modify the trigger any further than the springs.

If this works out, I think I'll change the sights next. Suggestions regarding adjustable iron sight or red dot scope mount installation also appreciated.

**Unclenick** · January 9, 2008, 06:32 PM

My Dan Wesson spring set that brought about the ignition failures was Wolff, too. Good brand, generally, but just didn't work in that gun. It seems to me, though, that I was mainly using CCI primers back then. Perhaps shifting to the more sensitive Federal would have solved it? Keep that in mind if you have trouble? The longer lock time will keep you in training for good follow-through habits.

Casimer · January 10, 2008, 09:51 PM

Quote:

BTW, since the trigger breaks like glass on single action I'll probably will not need to modify the trigger any further than the springs.

Isn't the Taurus action very similar to the S&W? - if so, you're engaging a DA sear when shooting DA. If the new springs don't achieve what you're looking for, a trigger/action job may be in order. In my experience much of the true, and perceived, weight of a DA trigger can be relieved this way.

Quote:

adjustable iron sight

Unfortunately the owner of the Bo-Mar sight company has passed away and the status of the company is currently in limbo - I haven't been able to find them for sale anywhere. These are great sights if you can find one.

Aristocrat makes a series of revolver sights - http://www.aristocratproducts.com/

There are several other manufacturers, check Brownell's and Midway.

Sgt.Dusk · January 11, 2008, 02:56 AM

get a spring kit from midway and
youll be working wonders.

James K · January 11, 2008, 02:52 PM

I may be wrong but I think the kits Midway sells are made by Wolff, so there is nothing to be gained by buying from Midway.

In any case, since Mike seemed to know what he wanted, I didn't give out my normal warning that every time you reduce mainspring/hammer spring tension, you reduce reliability. There are no, repeat, no exceptions. Designers and manufacturers build in extra spring power to deal with adverse conditions, like dirt, dust, cold, etc. Since most gun owners will never encounter those kinds of problems, that extra power can be reduced somewhat in favor of easier operation. But if that power is ever needed and is not there, it may be sorely missed. (No one ever clicked an attacker to death!)

Jim

**Unclenick** · January 12, 2008, 11:42 AM

Exactly the experience I warned of. The click would be even more unwelcome in self-defense than in a rapid fire string at a match. NEVER put those springs in a revolver you need to rely on for social purposes. I should have mentioned that I finally put the original spring back in the Dan Wesson and reworked the action (a pain in that, by the time I was done, I had to install a new hand to bring the timing back, but I finally got what I wanted).

Nick

Mike_In_MD · January 13, 2008, 08:52 PM

The Wolf Springs came in today, and I installed the lightest springs in the pack, a 10 pound hammer spring and 10 pound trigger return spring. It has a much better DA, and the hammer still provides a very solid hit to the firing pin, but to be honest I wish it were about another 4 or 5 pounds lighter. Am I expecting too much?

James K · January 13, 2008, 09:16 PM

Hi, Mike,

I don't know how much experience you have had with DA revolvers, but the key to accurate DA shooting is practice and lots of it; fortunately, you can do a lot dry firing without spending a lot of money on ammo. Also remember there are a lot of factors involved other than mainspring tension. Smoothness is obviously one, a herky-jerky trigger with a light spring is still a herky-jerky trigger and still will hurt accuracy. Another factor is hammer mass (weight). Firing the primer takes momentum, which is mass times velocity, so those factors have to be balanced or you get misfires, as many folks have found out when removing a hammer spur.

I recommend you first take the gun with the light spring to the range. If it functions OK, then practice with it. If necessary, you can have the action smoothed up, but try plain old gun oil first.

Good luck.

Jim

velocette · January 13, 2008, 09:18 PM

Mike;
If you are using lower powered springs for your hammer, I suggest that you use Federal primers with your reloads or Federal ammo if you are wealthy enough to not reload. Federal primers are well known to be "soft", that is they require less energy to cause them to fire. CCI primers are known to be the "hardest" and Winchester, Remington are in between.
The use of Fed primers may allow you to lighten your hammer springs a bit more than you could with other primers.

Roger

Mike_In_MD · January 13, 2008, 09:56 PM

Jim and velocette, I shoot a lot, about three times a week over the last 3 years...although I shoot several other pistols along with that revolver. I'll try shooting about a thousand rounds through it with the 10 pound springs to ensure no misfires, and to see if I can get use to this for timed and rapid.

BTW, I reload all my ammo and use what ever primers are on sale. All my current loaded ammo has winchester primers so I guess that is a good test. I also have several hundered Federal primers laying around that I could load up on my Dillon 550 in a pinch.

Thanks for all the help.

jmorris · January 17, 2008, 09:42 AM

Think of your revolver as having two separate triggers one for SA another for DA. What I mean is that your revolver can have the best SA trigger pull ever and have a gritty jerky DA trigger pull. Often the extractor/hand fit needs to be worked on so the DA trigger pull is the same for every “hole”. Jerry Miculek has a video for S&W revolvers that is worth watching if you plan to do more than just swap springs. There are several different reduced power mainsprings available and you can also modify existing springs if you wish (just have spars). When ordering the springs order an extra strain screw as well, once you have found the least amount of tension required to ignite the primer you can trim the extra screw to the proper length. There is also more to the trigger weight than just the main spring; the rebound slide has its own spring that you could reduce for Bullseye (I wouldn’t recommend it for idpa/uspsa as you need a firm reset to avoid “short stroking” when at speed). In addition to using federal primers, if you are shooting a 45 ACP revolver you can reduce the mainspring tension more if you use NT or GAP brass as small primers require less force to ignite.

James K · January 17, 2008, 01:22 PM

Hi, Jmorris,

All good advice except that Mike has a Taurus Model 65, which doesn't have a rebound slide or a strain screw, and the mainspring is a coil spring.

Jim

Harry Bonar · January 23, 2008, 09:01 PM

Sir:
I'd treat it like any rifle or handgun - the timing, the trigger (a safe one) alignment, and bore crown. I would be super careful about the trigger, springs and polishing them - you'd better know exactly what we are doing.
Also, in a revolver, the forcing cone and cylinder bore diameter - it should be the same, or cylinder exit not more than .001 larger than bore diameter. The forcing cone I'd re-do to 11 degrees and lap it like with the Brownells kit!
Harry B.

January 9, 2008, 09:42 AM	#1
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	I want to make my revolver competition friendly ...Help! I have a Taurus Model 65 that I want to use for informal Bullseye shooting and I want a lighter double action trigger pull. I have other pistols to shoot bullseye (45 ACP and a Model 41) so please refrain from any don't use a revolver comments. Here's the problem. I can shoot it single action and hold the 10 ring just fine for slow fire, but I plan to shoot it double action for Timed and Rapid fire and that Double action pull is way too much using my pointer finger on the trigger. Using my middle finger on the trigger my wobble area on the target is much smaller, but I want a lighter trigger to improve my scores. Can anybody point me in the right direction on the parts to buy, where to buy them, and modification procedure?

January 9, 2008, 01:50 PM	#2
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Mike, The old timers always shot timed and rapid single-action. They claimed thumbing the hammer helped them get the sights back on target, and preferred this to self-loaders. Based on that advice, I used my Dan Wesson single-action for the centerfire stage in formal matches for awhile, and found it did reasonably well. Double-action is tougher to learn, but learn it you can. I just find it works far better with a two-handed hold because the greater range of finger motion causes the moving tendons in the palm of my trigger-pulling hand to influence the sight alignment stability more. All that said, you are welcome to do it however you please. What you need is a revolver tuning job. Anyone who can tune a Smith & Wesson revolver should be able to handle a Taurus. A lot of the best DA revolver smiths are gone. When law enforcement moved to self-loaders, interest in the DA wheel guns fell off sharply. Their resurgence in hunting hasn't affected this greatly since hunting is mostly shooting single-action. So, I don't have a name for you, but take a look at Midway's gunsmith locator. If you want to do it yourself, you are into the usual suspects. Start with Brownells for parts. They should be able to sell you a copy of Kuhnhausen's book on S&W revolvers, which you ought to read if you've never worked on anything like this. Let me caution you about some of the quick fixes, like a lightened mainspring. I put one in my Dan Wesson and proceeded to get intermittant ignition failures. It's much better to get the DA smoothed up first, then approach spring tension gradually. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 9, 2008, 06:32 PM	#6
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	My Dan Wesson spring set that brought about the ignition failures was Wolff, too. Good brand, generally, but just didn't work in that gun. It seems to me, though, that I was mainly using CCI primers back then. Perhaps shifting to the more sensitive Federal would have solved it? Keep that in mind if you have trouble? The longer lock time will keep you in training for good follow-through habits. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 12, 2008, 11:42 AM	#10
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Exactly the experience I warned of. The click would be even more unwelcome in self-defense than in a rapid fire string at a match. NEVER put those springs in a revolver you need to rely on for social purposes. I should have mentioned that I finally put the original spring back in the Dan Wesson and reworked the action (a pain in that, by the time I was done, I had to install a new hand to bring the timing back, but I finally got what I wanted). Nick __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 13, 2008, 09:18 PM	#13
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	Mike; If you are using lower powered springs for your hammer, I suggest that you use Federal primers with your reloads or Federal ammo if you are wealthy enough to not reload. Federal primers are well known to be "soft", that is they require less energy to cause them to fire. CCI primers are known to be the "hardest" and Winchester, Remington are in between. The use of Fed primers may allow you to lighten your hammer springs a bit more than you could with other primers. Roger __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

January 9, 2008, 02:40 PM	#3
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	The do it yourself route with lighter springs is how I want to go. I think it's worth a try if the springs are cheap. At worse case I can put the old springs back in. That book suggestion is worth checking into...thanks.

January 9, 2008, 03:08 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Try www.gunsprings.com (Wolff's). They sell a Shooters Pack Stock No. 17190 for $10.50, which should have what you need. Also, stone the trigger and other areas just enough to remove sharp edges and rough spots. Be careful - the parts are case hardened, so if you cut through the very thin surface hardness, you can ruin the part. Even with the lighter springs, you will probably not be able to fire DA using the first pad of your index finger, as you would firing SA. You will have to use the middle pad or the first joint. If you have to use the middle finger, I would say forget DA firing as it is too easy to get your index finger where the gas from the barrel-cylinder gap will burn it. Jim

January 9, 2008, 06:18 PM	#5
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	Thanks..I just placed an order for those springs. BTW, since the trigger breaks like glass on single action I'll probably will not need to modify the trigger any further than the springs. If this works out, I think I'll change the sights next. Suggestions regarding adjustable iron sight or red dot scope mount installation also appreciated.

January 11, 2008, 02:56 AM	#8
Sgt.Dusk Member Join Date: December 12, 2007 Location: The dark forests of scandinavia Posts: 32	get a spring kit from midway and youll be working wonders.

January 11, 2008, 02:52 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I may be wrong but I think the kits Midway sells are made by Wolff, so there is nothing to be gained by buying from Midway. In any case, since Mike seemed to know what he wanted, I didn't give out my normal warning that every time you reduce mainspring/hammer spring tension, you reduce reliability. There are no, repeat, no exceptions. Designers and manufacturers build in extra spring power to deal with adverse conditions, like dirt, dust, cold, etc. Since most gun owners will never encounter those kinds of problems, that extra power can be reduced somewhat in favor of easier operation. But if that power is ever needed and is not there, it may be sorely missed. (No one ever clicked an attacker to death!) Jim

January 13, 2008, 08:52 PM	#11
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	The Wolf Springs came in today, and I installed the lightest springs in the pack, a 10 pound hammer spring and 10 pound trigger return spring. It has a much better DA, and the hammer still provides a very solid hit to the firing pin, but to be honest I wish it were about another 4 or 5 pounds lighter. Am I expecting too much?

January 13, 2008, 09:16 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Mike, I don't know how much experience you have had with DA revolvers, but the key to accurate DA shooting is practice and lots of it; fortunately, you can do a lot dry firing without spending a lot of money on ammo. Also remember there are a lot of factors involved other than mainspring tension. Smoothness is obviously one, a herky-jerky trigger with a light spring is still a herky-jerky trigger and still will hurt accuracy. Another factor is hammer mass (weight). Firing the primer takes momentum, which is mass times velocity, so those factors have to be balanced or you get misfires, as many folks have found out when removing a hammer spur. I recommend you first take the gun with the light spring to the range. If it functions OK, then practice with it. If necessary, you can have the action smoothed up, but try plain old gun oil first. Good luck. Jim

January 13, 2008, 09:56 PM	#14
Mike_In_MD Member Join Date: August 12, 2006 Posts: 33	Jim and velocette, I shoot a lot, about three times a week over the last 3 years...although I shoot several other pistols along with that revolver. I'll try shooting about a thousand rounds through it with the 10 pound springs to ensure no misfires, and to see if I can get use to this for timed and rapid. BTW, I reload all my ammo and use what ever primers are on sale. All my current loaded ammo has winchester primers so I guess that is a good test. I also have several hundered Federal primers laying around that I could load up on my Dillon 550 in a pinch. Thanks for all the help.

January 17, 2008, 09:42 AM	#15
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	Think of your revolver as having two separate triggers one for SA another for DA. What I mean is that your revolver can have the best SA trigger pull ever and have a gritty jerky DA trigger pull. Often the extractor/hand fit needs to be worked on so the DA trigger pull is the same for every “hole”. Jerry Miculek has a video for S&W revolvers that is worth watching if you plan to do more than just swap springs. There are several different reduced power mainsprings available and you can also modify existing springs if you wish (just have spars). When ordering the springs order an extra strain screw as well, once you have found the least amount of tension required to ignite the primer you can trim the extra screw to the proper length. There is also more to the trigger weight than just the main spring; the rebound slide has its own spring that you could reduce for Bullseye (I wouldn’t recommend it for idpa/uspsa as you need a firm reset to avoid “short stroking” when at speed). In addition to using federal primers, if you are shooting a 45 ACP revolver you can reduce the mainspring tension more if you use NT or GAP brass as small primers require less force to ignite.

January 17, 2008, 01:22 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Jmorris, All good advice except that Mike has a Taurus Model 65, which doesn't have a rebound slide or a strain screw, and the mainspring is a coil spring. Jim

January 23, 2008, 09:01 PM	#17
Harry Bonar Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area. Posts: 1,804	revolver Sir: I'd treat it like any rifle or handgun - the timing, the trigger (a safe one) alignment, and bore crown. I would be super careful about the trigger, springs and polishing them - you'd better know exactly what we are doing. Also, in a revolver, the forcing cone and cylinder bore diameter - it should be the same, or cylinder exit not more than .001 larger than bore diameter. The forcing cone I'd re-do to 11 degrees and lap it like with the Brownells kit! Harry B.