Acquired L.C.Smith "Elsie"

[the_pragmaticist]

With the passing of a family member, I have become the caretaker of several new firearms. Among them was a very old side by side which some quick research has identified as an L. C. Smith shotgun. I have been unable to find a serial number on it. It has several patent dates stamped on the barrel, the most recent being 1905. It has two triggers and no visible hammers. The break is tight (haven't cleaned it up yet and it was sitting for...decades?) but it does open and the automatic extractors seems to be functional. There is surprisingly little rust, though the stock does announce itself to be very very old.

I was hoping someone might be able to help me with some ID. I will try to take some pictures in a day or two and put them up for better ID, but are there any specific markings I should be looking for to find out if this gun was made by Marlin or by the original LC Smith factory? Is there any way to narrow down the date of manufacture without a serial number, or is there somewhere sneaky that there might be a serial?

As far as functionality, I noticed that only the front trigger actually works. I don't even know which barrel this indexes. I did note that (from a shoulder mounted point of view) the left firing pin is "stuck" out and the right one moves freely, so clearly one of them is not doing what it should. Should the pins retract when the action is opened? If so, would it be advisable to take a small whack at the extended pin with a punch to break it free?

Lastly...I don't believe this to be damascus steel. It looks like a normal set of barrels and I do believe the old gun would love to send a present to a pheasant again after all these years. Assuming I can fix the firing pin issue in some way, do I need to take such a gun to a gunsmith for a safety checkup or do they tend to hold up over the years?

Thanks for any info...if anyone knows more, it's you guys.


edit - clarified dates

[PetahW]

The serial number should be stamped into the action watertable, and possibly the barrel flats underside(s) - which may be accessed by unhookung/removing the barrels after first removing the forend.

Take care not to pull a trigger with the barrels off, or you will have to use a cocking tool (or a screwdriver) to recock the hammers vis the cocking levers on the front of the action knuckle.

.

[zippy13]

The firing pins should rebound (retract).
Please post pics.

[the_pragmaticist]

Thank you folks - both helpful posts. I'll try to find the serial and take some pictures of the gun this evening for your perusal. It doesn't look like it was ever a particularly fancy piece, but it's a solid looking gun for sure.

[publius]

Sorry about the way you acquired it but congratulations at the same time. i would LOVE to have an L.C.

[oneounceload]

Congrats on a fine gun! You might want to also check out:

http://www.lcsmith.org/index.html

Lots of info, and help for anything LC related

[Dave McC]

Elsies are great guns. This one is well worth some time,cash and effort to bring up to snuff.

The gun was one of the very few decent sidelocks made this side of the pond.

A trip to a good smith is in order. He/she can check chamber length, headspace, whether the action is true to the barrels or vice versa, etc.

Once this checks out, shoot it with low power loads.

Enjoy......

[Head-Space]

American Rifleman, April 2010 has a back page write up on L.C. Smith. Sparse and model specific. Page 88.

Company started in 1884 by Lyman Cornelius Smith, same guy who developed the Smith Corona typewriter.

1888 Smith sold to John Hunter Sr.

1889 - 1943 Hunter Arms Co. Various grades 2 though 7 or A to F, and AA.

1913 changed grades to Field, Ideal, Olympic, Trap, Specialty, Eagle, Crown, Monogram, Premier, DeLuxe.

Hunter Arms went bankrupt in 1917, sold to Simonds Saw & Steel, Fitchburg Mass.

1920 Hunter Arms rescued by Marlin.

Pre 1945 guns are coveted. The "sidelock" is actually a box lock with false sideplates, mfg'd in Europe.

The 16 ga. Ideal Grade listed in the NRA article is valued at about $1,550 -- "restored". In original it would be worth $3,105.

-------------------------------------------------
Double triggers are set side by side. Left trigger shoots he left barrel. Right trigger shoots the right barrel.

Don't be "tapping" stuff with a "mallet and punch"

If parts are corroded or otherwise crud stuck together, the gun needs to be dis-assembled and cleaned, repaired. Mallet will break it, not fix it!

L.C. Smith is a sweet gun. Take care of it!

I might shoot a light trap load in it once checked out by a qualified smith, but I'd put it in a safe and regard it as a highly collectible antique.

[the_pragmaticist]

Thank you for the advice and information. I've taken a few pictures and I'll see if I can post them here. The serial was hidden as described - it looks to be 2130XX, with a 00 stamped below it. According to lcsmith.org, it was manufactured in 1910.

[the_pragmaticist]

One more pic.

[the_pragmaticist]

I disassembled the side plates to see what was going on in there. After unspringing and cleaning the left side, it assembled and worked correctly. Unfortunately, the cause of the stuck pin became apparent.

There's a rotating catch which cocks the mechanism - part 17 or 18 in the link. It's completely broken in half and no longer performs its function when the action is opened, so the left trigger group doesn't cock and the hammer holds the pin depressed permanently. I'm going to see if a friend can machine the part or if there is one to be had online - that appears to be the only mechanical issue other than some slightly cracked wood.





http://www.gunpartscorp.com/Schemati...del+Hammerless

[PetahW]

Please don't mess around with a shade tree repair - you have a fine collectible L.C.Smith, there.

You will find the money spent with a quality doublegun gunsmith (NOT Joe Blow, down the road) dollars well spent.

You have what is referred to as a "graded" L.C.Smith - an "OO Grade", as is marked on the watertable.

The OO Grade was the lowest grade of the era before the even less well made & lower-graded elsies came to be created (after 1914) for an ever more competitive shotgun marketplace - where SxS had to try to compete dollar-wise against much cheaper to manufacture repeaters.

Even so, the L.C.Smith was one of the best shotguns in the world, and the only American-made sidelock, AFAIK.

Although the OO was the lowest grade of the time, it is head/shoulders above later Ideal & Field grades, etc - and a VERY desireable gun in many vintage double circles.

The Cody Museum will have the records for your shotgun, which can be found via the serial number.

.

[the_pragmaticist]

I have a very near to obsessive compulsive disorder requiring broken things to be fixed - please forgive my impatience. You're probably right about having a pro do the repair, simple as it looks.

Can anyone recommend an appropriate smith in the northern Ohio area, or is this a ship-it-out project?

[PetahW]

I would suggest contacting Len Applegate, of the LC Smith Collectors Assoc, for a gunsmith recommendation.

AFAIK, He can be reached at:

7572 Overglen Dr.
West Chester, OH 45069
(513) 942-7572

Please speak with a good 'smith - you may be able to mail only the action in a $4.95 USPS Flat Rate Box, if he doesn't require the barrels or wood to make the repair.

BTW - It's perfectly legal under Federal Law for anybody to mail out, and receive back, their own firearm to any FFL, anywhere, for repair.

.

[Hawg]

it looks to be 2130XX, with a 00 stamped below it. According to lcsmith.org, it was manufactured in 1910.

Now that's weird. My hammerless 00 grade is numbered higher than yours with number 3284xx and they date it to 1909.

[the_pragmaticist]

http://lcsmith.org/shotguns/manufacture.html

Apparently they jumped around quite a bit with the ranges.

[ENC]

My father in laws elsie also had a broken cocking rod and we were able to find the part online and replace it ourselves.

Evan