Who here has used a gun in self defense

[youp]

Showed it once. I am unsure how the situation would have ended without the pistol. The guy had anger issues. He might have only needed to vent. He probably went home and kicked his dog. I know he was not kicking me.

[HKFan9]

Once, no shots fired, was sitting watching a movie in the living room at 3am, couldn't sleep. Herd a knock at the door, thinking it was one of my friends needing a place to sleep or something I got up, my bag was right there so just to be safe i grabbed my CCW gun from it and stuck it in my waist under my shirt. I don't have a peep hole at the time so I open the door but knew enough to brace it with my leg. It wasn't a friend it was some drug addict asking for drugs I told him no and to leave when he placed his hand on my door n started to push. He tried to force his way into my house when I drew my firearm from concealment. I never aimed just got it out of my waistband and he was already turned around running. Still pretty scary, I always leave a light on in the living room when I go to bed.

[Murdock]

Once. Multiple opponents. No shots fired. Cops got upset when I reported it. They felt the town in question just didn't have stuff like that happen.

[dabigguns357]

Once

2 shots were fired but not at a human.Two dogs came at me while i was getting my son out of the car.I slowly put him back in the car and shut the door so they couldn't get to him.After that i drew my Snubbie 357 and waited to see what they were going to do.Only one got close enough to warrent me shooting it while the other one stayed back barking.I put 2 shots of .38 into the dog,it didn't kill it but ran off limping.I actually felt really bad for the dog because it was in a lot of pain.I called 911 and the police came,took my statement and left,i never heard anything again.After that retained a lawyer,then changed my ammo and gun choices,i started carrying a 4 inch 357 with 130gr personal defense .357 mags.

[publius]

I'm glad to see this thread and am not surprised at the results, usually it is not neccessary to fire a shot which is the way we want it. Contrary to the media's portrayal of us we are not a bunch of bloodthirsty nuts, just regular people who want to be left alone and equip ourselves with the tools to ensure this.

[oakfloor]

It was thunderstorming, and I had nodded off for a while when I heard someone trying to punch out the screendoor window as it was summer and the window was open. For a brief moment it took to come to my senses I just new someone wanted in, so I grab my styer GB with one in the hole and eighteen more in the box, and stood there waiting to see how this will end..and now im awake and and my heart pushing about 100BPM watching this door get banged on shaking back and forth it had a dead bolt so it would have to have been broken down..when what do I see? my roomate's sibierian husky paws sticking thru the screen he'd already torn off! Seems he didnt like thunder and wanted in. What a scare, it took awhile to calm down and that dog stayed by me the rest of the eve, not knowing how close he came to going to doggie paradise. I really thought I was going to shoot a intruder and was expecting and ready to do so..scary now when I realize that I have that in me, Thank you Lord it turned out well.

[FM12]

Almost had to once, and thought it would turn out I would...observed a juvenile out in my front yard examining my step sons bike pretty closely...then watched as he approached the front door and then knock lightly three or four times, I figured to see if anyone washome. I thought he was about to break in and I retreived my Browning Hi Power...he never cam in and as I watched he rode off on my step-son's bike. Had the PD to helpme chase him down and retreived said bike. Everyone was pretty happy, bike was not damaged and the thug released to the PD guys.

[Ben Towe]

Once. No shots fired. Only time I ever drew on a person. Have drawn a few times in other situations that could have gotten bad but didn't.

[CA PI]

Yea, My business partner did. Sorry for the long post but we did a sort of after action report to see what we could learn from it...

A very good friend of mine was down in Santa Ana last week on business and was the victim of a 211 (armed robbery) - Real interesting story, I'm going to try to re-tell it to the best of my ability. Now, please understand that I will be vague on some parts, the two suspects are hard core bangers down there and I wish no problems on the friend of mine. Besides - I wasn't there and do not know everything.

So here we go...

A very good friend of mine retired after 30 years of wearing a badge from a city here in Central CA. Date of retirement 2-26-07. While he officially wore the badge he was involved in 3 officer involved shootings (I like to argue with him about that, the last one in 00 or 01 was him getting shot in the forearm and never returning fire. SWAT responded and the suspect surrendered after a couple of hours of standoff. Luckily he is fully recovered from that. But I think he was still only involved in 2.5 officer involved shootings...). He has been the dept. firearms instructor for over 20 years. He is/was the academy firearms instructor and has taught for other depts. in northern CA. He has been an adjunct instructor at Gunsite on a number of occasions. He has taught a great number of civilian classes as well. To sum it up - He is INCREDIBLY well trained with lots of experience to back it all up, the whole "Been there done that" thing.

He is now working for (Has for a while but he is now doing more work for them) a target making company as a field rep. and was down in Santa Ana visiting some ranges and a couple of the local PDs from what I understand. He is spending the night at a hotel on "Hotel row" or whatever it is called down there. Mostly business men staying there so you can assume it is a target rich environment for criminals and the bad guys can, USUALLY assume that their victims will be unarmed.

So my Buddy (That is what I will call him for this story) gets done eating at a placed called “Spoons” and is walking back to his hotel room along a sidewalk. Coming towards him he sees a man in a suit talking on a cell phone. He also notices 5-6 guys similarly dressed in the parking lot of Spoons. Buddy passes the suit and nods to him, just acknowledging him. Then he sees two adult black males emerge from some bushes about 10 feet away. They had been trailing suit man but Buddy saw them and made eye contact and they immediately advanced on him. ABM #1 is wearing a bandanna across his face with the hood of a sweatshirt pulled up over his head - He will now be called bandanna boy. ABM #2 is wearing a sweatshirt with a turtleneck with a zipper, it is zipped all the way up to cover the lower part of his face (wasn't there a character like that on Fat Albert?) - He will be called turtle boy.

Back to the story...

Bandanna Boy and Turtle boy advance on buddy and stop within 3 feet of him. Buddy is now triangled by the two. Buddy is carrying a S&W snubby in an ankle holster, jeans, shirt and a baseball cap. Surveying the area Buddy sees no immediate cover and no one seems to have noticed these two bad guys. Bandanna boy demands all of Buddy's money or Turtle boy is going to shoot him. At this point Turtle boy, with his arms crossed across his chest, displays a Beretta Cougar (Buddy ID'd it immediately - we are both gun nuts like that). Buddy pulls out a $5 bill and says, honestly, that is all he has (he is married like me). Bandanna boy takes the money and angrily says that he must have more so to give him Buddy's wallet.

Now, Buddy is carrying his clean wallet in one pocket and another wallet in his other pocket that contains his retired badge and retired ID. Buddy gives up his clean wallet and bandanna boy gets angry again because there is no more money in it. Bandanna boy shoves it in his pocket and now demands Buddy's cell phone. At this point Buddy decides he doesn't know where this is going to go so he decides it is time to stop being a victim.

Buddy starts pulling his cell and more or less argues with bandanna boy about it being his work cell (it is). All the while raising his arms in exasperation and dropping them and shuffling his feet. His goal is to get bandanna boy between him and turtle boy, the possible shooter. He makes it. During his "Temper tantrum" neither bandanna boy or turtle boy move. With bandanna boy between buddy and turtle boy Buddy makes his move. He throws his cell at bandanna boy and nails him in the face. The startled response by bandanna boy causes turtle boy to jump to. In an often practiced move Buddy squats down and smoothly draws his revolver and rises screaming at boy suspects to show there hands and drop to the ground. Buddy also takes three quick steps back - remember distance is your friend! Turtle boy turns as if to run but instead nose dives into the pavement. Bandanna boy takes a half step back and hesitates... Buddy screams again "Show me your hands! Face down on the ground or I will KILL YOU!" Bandanna boy makes the smart decision, possibly the only one he made that whole day. He drops to the ground with his arms spread out.

Buddy yells out to anyone listening "Call 911 tell them an off duty cop is involved in a 211!" and quickly follows that with "Call Santa Ana PD and tell them a 211 is in progress and an off duty cop is on scene!" Please remember that if you dial 911 from your cell phone it will call CHP. Give your location first in case you are disconnected. When you call CHP it will ring at the first open dispatch line, that may be on the other end of the state. After about a minute Buddy has an epiphany, all those civilians who say it takes forever for PD to respond are right! At least it seems like forever!

Then suddenly one of the suits in the parking lot calls out "All of the emergency lines are tied up!" That was not something Buddy wanted the suspects to hear! Bandanna boy starts saying/whispering things to turtle boy. One thing buddy hears is "when the cops show up tell them this guy tried to jack us." Buddy, the whole time transitioning the barrel from one to the other tells them to shut up, if they try to move he will kill them. He has already determined that at least one of them has a firearm. If bandanna boy were to get up and try to attack him there will be problems with turtle boy. The decision is to nail turtle boy first because he has the one gun that Buddy has already seen. But Buddy doesn't see it now even though he can see all four hands.

Buddy starts hearing the low roar of engines so he pulls out his badge and holds it over his head. Suddenly a spotlight his shined down on him from a helicopter so he is trying to make sure they see his badge too.

The first uniform arrives and Buddy lowers the barrel of his gun, to take it off of the suspects but still keep it available and yells out "I'M A RETIRED COP! DON'T SHOOT ME!" Uniform #1 acknowledges that and Buddy asks if he has them covered because he is going to re-holster. Buddy is worried about the adrenaline dump the other responding officers will experience; he still doesn't want to be shot on this night. The other cop says don't re-holster yet more units are on the way. Buddy starts waving his badge at every driveway and street as three more marked units show up. Finally with the four uniforms on scene Buddy retreats a bit more and shoves the snubby in his pocket and pockets his badge.

Bandanna boy starts yelling out to everyone that "This guy tried to jack us up!" That didn't go over to well with the uniforms. Bandanna boy, now with his hands cuffed behind his back is trying to rub his chin on his chest to pull down the bandanna. One of the uniforms pushes him against a unit and grabs his chin. While he was doing this he was also yelling at one of the other uniforms to grab a Polaroid camera. They are able to catch a picture of him with the bandanna across his face and his hood pulled over his head. Wouldn't you guys walk around town like that too? Turtle boy was able to get most of his sweatshirt off his face but it is still covering his chin.

The uniforms find Buddy’s wallet on bandanna boy along with Buddy's $5 bill. Bandanna boy the whole time yelling that he didn't know how that got there! It took a couple of minutes to find the Beretta. When turtle boy had nose dived he threw his arms out too. That caused the Beretta to end up almost under some bushes. It turned out to be an airsoft pistol with the orange end painted black.

The suit that had passed Buddy came back after the cops showed up and thanked Buddy, acknowledging that he had been there target. Because he was so engrossed in his phone conversation he hadn't seen anything until the yelling started. Suit insisted on buying Buddy a beer at Spoons. When they went in all of Spoons gave Buddy a standing ovation. Drinks were all on the house.

The next day Buddy got a call from the DA's office. Thanking him and telling him that he is the talk of the departments.

Good Guy Wins! The two bad guys picked a hell of a victim too.

Post Script – Turtle Boy was on probation for armed robbery, he gets 15 years in state prison. Bandanna Boy on probation for burglary and gets 13 years in state prison.

[CA PI]

This is some of what he learned from the above event and we have incorporated most of it into a course we teach called Extreme Close Quarters Defense. It is fairly long, again, I apologize for that.

Some of the lessons learned –

First and foremost is training. Buddy’s training, both the training that he has received over the years and the training he has bestowed on others, paid off.

Situational awareness was a big thing for Buddy. After 30 years as a cop it has paid off more times than he is aware of (no pun intended). He is sure that there were many more times that he just avoided problems without knowing just from being aware of his surroundings. On this occasion he knew of the guys in the parking lot so he knew when he yelled after the attempted armed robbery someone would here him. Though he assures me he would have yelled anyway if he didn’t know they were there he would have tried to have found his cell phone. By also acknowledging the suit that walked past him his attention was drawn to the area from where the bad guys emerged. This allowed him not to be totally surprised when they crept out of the bushes. His awareness of his surroundings also made it apparent to Buddy that he had no where safe to go. He already knew that there wasn’t any cover close enough to him to get before he would have been shot.

One other side note here is that he was in an unfamiliar area. By traveling down the main road back to his hotel he was safer than if he had tried to take a “Back road.” He isn’t sure if there were any alley ways or not but if there were he still would have taken the well traveled road. The lesson here is avoiding dark/unlit areas.

Carry a gun! Though that isn’t possible for everyone, if you can, do it! I’m in no way suggesting you break the law but if you have a CCW you are an ABSOLUTE FOOL for not using it. Buddy says that having his snubby was better than nothing but that the weather would have permitted a larger, more accessible firearm and he should have been carrying a bigger gun on his belt. This would have been yet another bad time to be carrying a fanny pack. The bad guys probably would have demanded it and would have had a true firearm. People don’t carry a fanny pack with nothing in it and they would have wanted to have had it. It would have been almost impossible to draw a firearm out of it prior to handing it over.

Throw away money. Buddy, like me, doesn’t carry a whole bunch of cash regularly. This whole event showed the value of carrying “Throw away” money in a separate pocket. It is better to lose $5 than $250. I’m sure some of you single guys can carry money like that sometimes… My wife doesn’t give me that sort of allowance.

For any law enforcement officers out there; this story is only one of many that you should pay attention to. NEVER carry your badge and Police I.D. in your main wallet. Have a dedicated wallet for that kind of information. If the bad guys had gotten that wallet (and they had a true firearm) they may kill just because of a resentment of cops or because they know cops are trained to give good descriptions.

The bad guys had formed a triangle with Buddy. This forced Buddy to face a threat on two sides. This was a very good move on their part. Buddy was able to manipulate them into a position that was more favorable to him. Luckily they were only a little smart. By placing a bad guy between buddy and the potential shooter Buddy hoped to have at least a little cover if he had to engage the bad guy with the gun.

When Buddy started protesting about giving up his cell phone it bought time for him and was distracting to the bad guys. By introducing what appeared to be “innocent” movement he was jockeying for a better position. Had there been cover he could have been moving closer to that as well. The movements also made the throwing of his cell phone more of a surprise. The startled response was predictable and powerful. A persons natural response to having something come at their face is to turn away, buying Buddy a little bit of time. Because Turtle boy couldn’t see all of Buddy’s movements so when bandanna boy jumped he predictably jumped as well. For you smokers out there a lit cigarette works wonderfully as well. Roll the cigarette between your middle or index finger and thumb and flick it towards their face. Again, a bright object flying at someone’s face can be rather distracting. Because of Buddy’s repeated training drawing from an ankle holster he was able to do it quickly and smoothly. PRACTICE YOUR DRAW! Regardless of where you carry your firearm, PRACTICE YOUR DRAW REPEATEDLY! You might want to do it with an unloaded firearm, if you don’t than YOU will be responsible for any problems (holes?) you create.

Another possibility here might have been feigning a heart attack. That may have allowed Buddy to get lower towards his holster but I still don’t think it would have allowed him to draw as un-noticed. The bad guys would have been watching him all the way down.

Maybe he could have thrown his wallet too. Had he thrown it into the street the bad guy’s eyes would have predictably followed it. There by buying him time to draw his firearm.

The three quick steps back made it so that the closest bad guy, in this case bandanna boy, could not try to disarm him. Remember that distance is always your friend.

Once Buddy had the drop on the bad guys he continued with his advantage. I didn’t add a bunch of the expletives that Buddy used because it didn’t add much to the story. It did have its desired effect on the bad guys though. Once you have control of the situation exploit it. Make the bad guy know that you are in charge. Tell them that you will “KILL” them if they do not follow your instructions. If you can’t say it you can’t do it, they know that. Be loud and forceful. Be in control. It also forces possible witnesses to notice you as well. Call out for help immediately. Maybe there is another Good Samaritan close by, maybe even an off duty cop. It also gets help on the way as quickly as possible. If you are a witness PLEASE don’t yell out that you can’t get a hold of the good guys… Just keep trying.

As Buddy found out cops take a while to get to you. Be prepared to take control and stay in control. It may also be a good idea to retreat to a more defendable area. Don’t stay too focused on the threat. Buddy continued with sweeping the area even after he had the bad guys at gun point. What if there had been a third bad guy watching out for the cops most likely avenue of approach? Continue with the situational awareness.

Had the bad guys in this case spoke a different language or been able to continue to communicate bad things could have happened. Keep the bad guys quite and immobile. They may be conspiring to try to overcome you. Again, keep control of the situation.

When the uniforms show up MAKE SURE YOU ARE IDENTIFIABLE! When you call out for help make sure you tell the witnesses to give dispatch a description of you. Buddy was a little luckier than most of us would have been because he had a badge to hold up. In most of our cases it still would have been a good idea to hold up your wallet. Try to give the uniforms some sort of impression that you are a good guy. When the good guys show up, lower the barrel of your gun and DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES TURN TOWARDS THE UNIFORMS WITH THE GUN IN YOUR HAND.

Keep telling everyone that shows up that you are the good guy. Don’t trust that the first officer has already radioed out who is good and who is bad before the rest of the cavalry shows up.

Like Buddy did, tell, or at least ask the uniforms what you are going to do before you do it. Let them know that you are going to holster your firearm. Buddy wanted to holster his weapon before too many people showed up and he just became “Some guy not in uniform pointing a gun.”

One of the most important post incident things that Buddy did was ask that his personal information not be included on the police report. Many may not know that once a person is charged with a crime the police report becomes public information. Buddy also confirmed with the District Attorney’s office that the report had been cleansed. The D.A.’s office will need personal information just in case you need to be subpoenaed for the case. They can also make sure that your personal information is kept confidential for your security. As it turned out in this case both bad guys had long criminal histories, are you surprised? Both had known gang affiliation. Would they have put a contract out on Buddy or his family? Who knows, Buddy didn’t want to try to find out.

If anyone else sees any other lessons learned here please feel free to add to or correct me where needed.

[Mr. Davis]

CA PI, thanks for sharing. Very long, but very informative.

[SiNNiK]

Nice story CA PI, thanks.

One thing I'd have done different though, probably because I'm not a trained individual like your Buddy is, but after all that jumpin around and finaggling in order to get my gun out, I am not about to just start hollering and screaming.

Glad eveyone came out ok.

[SiNNiK]

Early 90's in Austin Tx.

On Airport Dr., hamburger joint called Hamburger Haven.

I'm #3 in line at the drive through at about 9pm, with a #4 car behind me.

I get a weird "stared at" feeling while counting my last 2 or 3 dollars, look up and see a man with a black hoodie pulled up over his head walking directly towards me, hands in his front hoodie pocket from my 8:30. Big guy too, like 6'1"@270lbs or so.

Unkempt, menacing, and showed no interest in anyone else in line except me, that's enough red flags for me and I place the barrel of my Dan Wesson .357 on the driver's door of my car (window was down), and he stopped.

I turn my head around real quick to look for cops because I was worried about being seen holding a gun on some dude, I don't know why, but I was. No cops, but I did see the windshield of car #4 behind me full of eyeballs.

He must have felt that me looking around was some kind of weakness and actually took a step or two more towards me when I looked at him in his eyes and adjusted my "aim" more towards his face. He stopped again, but now he was maybe 10 feet away.

I kept looking at him, not blinking or anything. He finally said "Aww man I was just gonna ask for some change, my Volvo ran out of diesel down the road."

Yeah, right.

I said "I ain't got nothin for you." He turned and walked away the same direction he came from, didn't ask anyone else for change or anything.

Yup, I was skurt.

[TenRing]

CA PI, thanks for that information. Buddy's training really paid off. The only thing I would say is that Buddy should carry his gun in a position so he could draw without bending over. A lot of experienced officers have recommended against carrying a primary gun on the ankle.

[nathaniel]

When I was 10 years old I lived at my dads house on an indian reservation, one day while I was out hunting, some men in a pickup stopped on the road and started shooting at me and my dog. All I did was hit the dirt and started shooting my Henry 22lr in the air and they took off, I ran all the way to the house and the cops were called but they couldnt do anything even though I gave a very good description of the neighbors pickup.

The second is when my favorite horse ran off with my foot still in the stirrup. I'm glad I strapped on my Ruger GP100 that day!

[Ben Towe]

Guess that wasn't your favorite horse anymore after that.

[nathaniel]

Yeah I was sad that I had to shoot him but what I really hated was carrying my saddle the 3 miles back to home.

[orionengnr]

Post Script – Turtle Boy was on probation for armed robbery, he gets 15 years in state prison. Bandanna Boy on probation for burglary and gets 13 years in state prison.

I love a happy ending. [sniff]

[jaughtman]

was when I was moving out of an apartment into a house here in B'ham. I had EVERYTHING packed up ready for the moving truck the next morning when I am woke up by someone banging on my front door at 3 AM. I get up and yell out the door "what do you want", and the stranger (obviously high/doped up) yells back "you are in my apartment and I am about to KILL you when I get in there". He then goes to banging and kicking in the door - it really was about to come off the hinges. My roommate gets up about this time and sees what is going on - asks "where is your gun"? I motion to the couple of dozen sealed up moving boxes around us and say "in one of those". He runs down the hall and come back with a 7-iron and a driver and throws me one and says, "hope HE does not have a gun". We call the police and listen to him trying to kick the door in for about 5 more minutes. Fortunately he eventually just staggered off. Would have felt a lot more comforted with the Glock in hand.

[Fat Moe]

I was 23 years old and in the state police academy. My room-mate had already been working for the local PD for 2 years. One Saturday morning around 7am or so I hear a loud banging on our front door. I wake up and groggily go to the window, look out and see a cop buddy of my roommate. He is an ugly SOB, an ex marine with a pockmarked face and a bad attitude. I had met him before at a BBQ, he was still in uniform, so I open the door to him and say "hey what's up man?"

He goes right by me and into the living room, demands that I tell him where Dave's room is (Dave is not his real name) I'm still half asleep and think the guy is posturing and this must be some cop joke (remember I'm still only a cadet myself) So I tell him "yeah his room is back there, down the hallway on the right hand side."

I think no more of it and go back into my own room and crawl into bed. A minute or two later I hear all sorts of yelling and screaming, furniture being knocked over and a loud struggle. Then I hear the ex marine cop yelling "Dave you f**** weasel! I knew I couldn't trust you! I'm going to kill you!"

At this point I peer outside my door and the ex marine cop is dragging a woman by the hair out of my room-mate's room. My room-mate is following behind them with a t-shirt on and a pillow covering the lower front of his body. He whispers to me "hey, do me a favor please. come out here with us, and be my witness. this guy just caught me ***** his wife and he's crazy"

I walk into my room and there is more yelling in the living room so I stuff my Beretta 92fs down my boxer shorts and throw a track shirt on and go into the living room. I try to sit down on the couch nonchalantly while the ex marine cop is yelling and screaming at the top of his lungs.

I think to myself "what the he** did I get myself into here? This guy is going to draw and shoot my roommate, his wife, then kill me and then commit suicide. this is some crazy typical cop s***" As you can imagine the gun is sliding down my boxers and I'm nervous trying not to draw attention to myself.

To make a long story short, the guy ended up leaving with his wife a few minutes later after more yelling and threatening. My roommate thanked me and plopped down on the couch. I went and locked the front door and we called ourselves lucky. Dave immediately told me that it wasn't my fault that I opened the door and I felt a little better.

It wasn't exactly self defense but I'm glad I had my gun on me. To this day I think if the gun had slipped down my boxers the guy could have been pushed over the edge and done us all in with his service pistol. At the same time though, I didn't want to be completely defenseless. Up to that point in my life it was the scariest situation I had found myself in. I was young and scared or I would've at least put on some pants!

Hopefully none of the parties involved read this.

hehe

[GojuBrian]

I hope you know your buddy brought that whole situation on everyone involved.

[indykappa]

Yes, once.

At a drive thru ATM. No shots fired. The mere presentation of the firearm immediately ended the threat

[Baphomet]

It was a dark and stormy night (no, seriously!) and I was on the side of a rather deserted road with car issues. A trio of gents pulled over and parked up ahead of me. Too much time passed for my liking before they got out and when they did two of them had what appeared to be sawed off baseball bats in hand. That was enough for me to stand up, pull open my windbreaker, and expose my holstered 1911. That pretty much ended things on a very uneventful note. I still tossed my cookies, though, about a minute after their tail-lights were out of sight.

[indykappa]

Baphomet, my heartrate didn't slow down for almost an hour! I was impressed with myself for my situational awareness and quick reaction, but I was even more amazed at the "adrenaline dump" that occurs when you honestly believe you're in a do-or-die situation!

The human body is an amazing thing!