The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 2, 2016, 12:00 PM   #1
Idaho 45 Vaquero
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2015
Location: Idaho, nothing but sagebrush
Posts: 96
Putting my left index finger on the trigger guard

Is shooting with weak hand index finger on the front of the trigger guard inaccurate or susceptible to be? Anybody else do that?

The first semi-auto (Browning BDM) I got had a swale in the front of the trigger guard that I thought was for putting a finger on. So I started shooting that way with my left index finger up in front; I did that for all my teenage years.

In more recent years I noticed that nobody else does that; also my CCW trainer said that I shouldn't do that but never gave a clear explanation as to why. I've tried not to and usually don't anymore. The other day while plinking around I resorted to putting my left index finger in front of the trigger guard; I didn't notice till after I'd shot a magazine that I was doing that.

A couple of times I've compared putting my weak hand index in front of the trigger guard with the more conventional grip. The groups I've shot were the same either way. I'm not really noticing much of a difference.
Idaho 45 Vaquero is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 12:10 PM   #2
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,944
When I learned to shoot handguns the trainer at the range told me to place my left index finger on the finger pad which he said was designed for that purpose. Then about ten year later I took another class and was told not to do it. Now, I tend to avoid placing my finger one the trigger guard, but as you said seem to notice little difference either way.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 01:26 PM   #3
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 12,453
Don't think it makes any difference where you, um, stick your finger. Used to be frames made with squared and serrated trigger guards. It's a fad like a lot of stuff.
Has zero to do with accuracy though.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 01:34 PM   #4
Sharkbite
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 2013
Location: Western slope of Colorado
Posts: 3,678
It wont matter if what you are shooting is slowfire groups. Where it will come into play is recoil control for FAST follow up shots. 3 or more shots in a second will show whether that grip works for you.

Most people agree that the finger on the trigger guard face does not help with recoil. Try a good thumbs forward locked wrist grip and compare split times.
Sharkbite is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 01:48 PM   #5
MrBorland
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 2,614
I'm in the "keep your finger off the trigger guard" camp. Matter of fact, I'm in the "keep your thumbs off the frame" too.

Weak index fingers on the trigger guard (and thumbs on the frame) don't affect accuracy if their contact with the gun is consistent. But here's the rub: that's a huge "if".

Neither a weak index finger on the trigger guard nor thumbs on the frame do much for an effective grip, yet can certainly hurt your accuracy if applied inconsistently, so I recommend against them.
MrBorland is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 02:32 PM   #6
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
It has a tendency to loosen the grip on the gun, as it did for me.
So it aggravated recoil, instead of helping to reduce it.
But some of the top shooters, like Angus Hobdell of CZ Custom, use the technique quite effectively.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old May 2, 2016, 02:52 PM   #7
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
That gimmick was started by some of the custom smiths in the '70s. But serious shooters found it just meant that you had just one more muscle to control so they dropped the idea ! The gun companies then caught up and copied the earlier [found to be a bad idea] fixture on the production guns. Some companies still haven't figured it all out !!!
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver !
mete is offline  
Old May 5, 2016, 07:36 AM   #8
Silent_Bob
Junior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2012
Location: Northwest Illinois
Posts: 8
Hey Idaho,

It boils down to a mechanical leverage issue.

If you picture the muzzle as the load, the webbing between your firing side thumb and index/trigger high on the tang as the fulcrum, and your support hand on the stock as the working arm, you are on the right track.

The idea here is that you want to get the maximum amount of force on the working arm as far away from the fulcrum as possible.

In the case of a handgun you are trying to get the force as low on the magazine well/stock as possible, applying pressure from front to rear (not around with a crushing grip).

By putting the support hands trigger finger up in front of the trigger guard (much closer to the fulcrum and the load) one reduces the force that can apply to the working arm.

Also, if you start using a weapons mounted tactical light, you won't be able to put your finger up there anyways.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Silent_Bob; May 6, 2016 at 07:13 AM. Reason: Clarification
Silent_Bob is offline  
Old May 5, 2016, 07:03 PM   #9
pappa
Member
 
Join Date: April 6, 2002
Location: Dade City, Florida
Posts: 51
Does seem of course that you speak of shooting a self-loader pistol. Just in case any newbies are reading this , and they're shooting a revolver - NEVER put any skin you value any place near the front edge of the cylinder. You may not always see it but some pretty hot gases spray radially between the cylinder front and the forcing cone.
pappa is offline  
Old May 6, 2016, 03:06 PM   #10
TailGator
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,786
I have seen it argued that the trigger guards are shaped that way to provide a surface for stabilizing the pistols against cover barriers, and that they were never intended to be a grip enhancement. I wasn't at any meetings where their introduction was discussed, so I wouldn't know firsthand, but I do wonder how we got along without them so long if they were so essential to grip and recoil management.

Tongue planted firmly in cheek during the second sentence, but I am serious about the first.
TailGator is offline  
Old May 22, 2016, 12:21 AM   #11
Jeff22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 15, 2004
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 715
finger on the front of the trigger guard

This was a common technique for IPSC shooters in the late 70s to the mid 80s. A hooked trigger guard was a requirement in the military JSSAP tests for a new handgun in the early 1980s (which resulted in the adoption of the Beretta M9)

The instructors who did our instructor transition training for the automatic pistols were trained by the Smith & Wesson Academy and the S&W Academy taught that technique at that time (1986)

I never particularly liked doing that so I never did. I have big hands and long fingers and my fingers were long enough to make it work but I felt it compromised my grip. Some people really liked it and you'll see a few shooters using that technique to this day.
__________________
You can only learn from experience if you pay attention!
Jeff22 is offline  
Old May 22, 2016, 07:15 AM   #12
JimPage
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2010
Location: Rome, NY
Posts: 941
Different strokes for different folks. When you find what works for you, you should shoot that way. Be sure you try most things, then decide for yourself. Books and forums may well lead you astray.
__________________
Jim Page

Cogito, ergo armatum sum
JimPage is offline  
Old May 22, 2016, 07:11 PM   #13
johnwilliamson062
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 16, 2008
Posts: 9,995
Many of us started on firearms that had the cut-away for your weak hand index finger and used it. It is very common. It isn't the worst thing in the world, but it does cause some small increment of inaccuracy. You can probably out shoot your buddies with your index finger out front. You probably can't out shoot some of the forum members here.
I don't know of any actual benefit to having it out front.
johnwilliamson062 is offline  
Old May 23, 2016, 03:03 PM   #14
pilpens
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,696
I use to think that putting the support index finger on the trigger guard is bad practice. I do not do it. When I teach new shooters, I tell them not to do it.
But..............
There is a Jerry Miculek youtube video where he explains why he puts his support index finger on the trigger guard. Works very well for him. I think he said it helps him control recoil and wobble especially on light guns like M&P.
So, I guess it just depends on what you get used to.
pilpens is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 04:09 PM   #15
sauto456
Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2007
Posts: 23
Ive always found it to be very comfortable to place index finger on trigger guard.
Im going to try to avoid training that way in the future because like mentioned earlier, a weapon mounted light will interfere.
sauto456 is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 05:50 PM   #16
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
I am old school but my off hand fingers have a job and that is to support my primary grip on the weapon. I see no reason to extend a index finger to some other part of the gun. If I cant control the gun without doing such a thing, I will simply start doing some pushups.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 08:50 PM   #17
Mike38
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 28, 2009
Location: North Central Illinois
Posts: 2,706
I use both, and see no difference at all. Pistols like my Beretta 92FS and old model Ruger 22/45 with the flat front trigger guard I use it. Pistols like my M1911s or revolvers, I don't.
Mike38 is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 09:04 PM   #18
Bozz10mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2013
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 287
Finger on the trigger guard feels awkward to me. Thumbs forward works best for me.
Bozz10mm is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 10:08 PM   #19
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
It was never done much in the "old days", because few people held guns that way. But then some gurus decided that it gave better support when using a two-hand hold with an autoloader. There was enough support that several companies began to make guns that way and the U.S. Army specs for the M9 required a squared off and checkered trigger guard.

Is it a good idea? I have never been fond of it, but many people like it and to each his own.

But there is a small fly in the ointment. Note I said "with an autoloader." But some folks took to the idea with such enthusiasm that they decided to fire revolvers that way, usually without checking to see where the flash from the barrel-cylinder gap would go. Yyyyyeeeeoooouuuucccchhhh!

Jim
James K is offline  
Old June 20, 2016, 10:43 PM   #20
Radny97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2015
Posts: 1,021
I shoot both revolvers and semi autos competitively with my index finger on the trigger guard. It won't burn your fingers as long as you aren't dumb enough to put your finger next to the forcing cone. I've got 30,000 bullets down range as proof that it won't burn your fingers.
As for semi autos, it's really just a factor of hand size. I have really big hands so it works well for me. I would note that Eric Graufel, IPSC world champion for the last several years, puts his left index finger on the trigger guard. Several other competitors do as well. It must be working for them because they keep on winning.
Radny97 is offline  
Old June 21, 2016, 08:09 AM   #21
Jim Watson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2001
Location: Alabama
Posts: 18,486
Although the finger on trigger guard has fallen out of favor, there are probably better things to do than to try to break a longstanding habit. You might find yourself between two stools and flip flop indecisively between on and off.

Somewhat related anecdote: From 1997 til 2005, IDPA could require a Tactical Reload with magazines exchanged at the gun and a Reload With Retention with old magazine pocketed before the reload not allowed. They were declared equivalent in 2005. But I will STILL habitually do the Tac Load even though I have practiced the RwR.
Jim Watson is offline  
Old June 21, 2016, 01:35 PM   #22
Skans
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2008
Posts: 11,132
Trigger guards were never intended to be grips. Remember, just because something has serrations or stippling on it doesn't mean you should grip it!
Skans is offline  
Old June 21, 2016, 05:30 PM   #23
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,578
Interesting note.... My Glock 33 will jam *every single time* I put my left finger on the front of the trigger guard if I use any kind of force at all. I mean *at all*. A normal "grip" with that finger and the gun will stove pipe every single round.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old June 21, 2016, 08:37 PM   #24
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Hi, Radny97,

Whether the blast can hurt depends a lot on the gun, caliber and how it is held; I have seen folks pick up some nasty peppering and prefer to keep my finger out of the way but again, to each his own.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old June 22, 2016, 07:14 PM   #25
Radny97
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2015
Posts: 1,021
I agree. I certainly wouldn't do it with a 454 Casull.
Radny97 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11224 seconds with 10 queries