9mm Primers

Seto_Muuvari · May 7, 2006, 08:06 PM

I just started to reload, in fact I reloaded my first rounds of 9mm just yesterday. I fire them in a CZ-75 B With no other options changed on it. Today I woke up to find a nice day, with little clouds and a little wind, so naturally I went to the range to try out my loads. I loaded up 50 rounds in all, and adjusted the loads to see which ones will work for me.
I started at 2.9 grains of Win. 231 and worked up to 4.4 grains. These were all with 115 grain Lead round nose. I can't remember who makes them, but they seemed to work just fine.
Now, I feel I must point out that I got all my reloading equipment (including the primers, cases, and bullets) from a friend who recently passed away. He left me all the reloading equipment, and his firearms. His family didn't want anything to do with them.
I took out the loads, and found two loads that worked quite well. The one was a slow 3.5 grains that would work for plinking, and didn't recoil too bad. Then I noticed something quite odd hapening. Once I got to the 4.1 grain loads my CZ wouldn't close. It was as if something was blocking it. It only happened once with the 4.1 grains. I checked the primers thinking I had done something really bad and they looked just fine. They were still weak in comparison to the factory loads I had purchased. Then I tried the 4.4 grain loads. 3 out of 5 of them had the primers removed from the brass. They no longer stuck in there!
What am I doing wrong? The recoil is still weak in comparison with the factory loads, and the primers on the other 2 were not bulged at all, not even touched other than the dent on the back where the firing pin had hit. WHY ARE MY PRIMERS FIRING OUT?
While at the range I came to the conclusion that they were just old brass, and that maybe they had been reloaded way too many times. Then I came home and checked. This was their 3rd reload.

epr105 · May 8, 2006, 12:10 AM

You dont say what primers you use or what you use to seat them. I know with Winchester primers they seem a little smaller than CCI. When you put the primer in are you using a LEE priming tool or are you using a progressive press? You might need to use CCI and make sure the primers are seated properly.

Now if a round dosent chamber it could be a few reasons the brass might have the mouth expanded too much when you were seating the bullet. Lee has a nice factory crimp die that handles stuff like that.
If you are unsure how old the componets are it might not be a good idea to use them. Good luck with reloading it is very addicting.
Ed
EPR105

Leftoverdj · May 8, 2006, 09:14 AM

Primer pockets expanded to the point that primers fall out is proof of dangerously high pressures. Stop untill you find out what is causing those pressures.

One possibility is that your barrel is heavily leaded. A second is that the cases were fired with excessive loads before you got them. A third is that you made an error in charging or in the bullet weight.

Whatever the problem was, it's extremely dangerous and has to be fixed before you shoot any more.

big jon · May 8, 2006, 10:54 AM

ive been shooting for over30 years now including running a range for 4 and range master for several p.d.s and ive ony seen that once in my life time, i would suggest looking at all your reloading components and maybe have some one with more experance check it out with you maybe the powder went bad? i have no idea why you would have that happen, but you should defently stop till you get every thing checked out good luck

SDLAW · May 8, 2006, 04:35 PM

Quote:

I started at 2.9 grains of Win. 231 and worked up to 4.4 grains. These were all with 115 grain Lead round nose. I can't remember who makes them, but they seemed to work just fine.

Your loads may be way too hot for lead bullets especially if they are soft. Lead bullets typically generate higher pressures than jacketed bullets and a reduced load is necessary.

Seto_Muuvari · May 8, 2006, 06:04 PM

Sorry, I guess my story telling is a little off. I use CCI 500 Small pistol primers. I am loading everything on a single stage RCBS press. I'd have to check the model. I use a priming tool that came with the press for it. I've only seen another like it and it's made by lee, it uses the press to insert the prmiers. i'll get more information, then post it about the primer loading tool I use.
The reason the shells wouldn't load into the CZ was because the primers would fly out and get stuck between the slide and the barrel.
The loads I was using felt VERY light in comparison to the factory loads, I know it's lead, but does that mean I have to load them that low?
I'm beginning to think most of the problem was either excessive pressure, or just over used shells. I haven't had time to inspect the cases today, but I'll check them tonight.
Thanks for the help so far!

Leftoverdj · May 8, 2006, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Your loads may be way too hot for lead bullets especially if they are soft. Lead bullets typically generate higher pressures than jacketed bullets and a reduced load is necessary.

Other way around. With all other variables constant, lead bullets generate lower pressures. Reduced loads may be necessary, but it is for accuracy, not pressure, reasons.

SDLAW · May 8, 2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Other way around. With all other variables constant, lead bullets generate lower pressures. Reduced loads may be necessary, but it is for accuracy, not pressure, reasons.

You are right. I did not properly connect all the dots. In addition to reduced accuracy, hot loads may cause signifcant leading, which can increase pressures. One thing that should also be checked is the actual diameter of the bullets. If they are not properly sized, pressure may increase.

Seto_Muuvari · May 8, 2006, 08:08 PM

I finally broke down and went out to buy a couple new reloading books. The general rule seems to be the max load for 120 grain lead round nose is only 4.1 grains. I'll tone them down a little and see if that takes care of it. Thanks for all the help! I was using an older speer reloading book up until now, and it didn't have a load listed for lead bullets. The only other source I could find was online, so I just kinda winged it. Won't do that again!
I'll also chuck out all the old components I can find. 9mm cases are easy to find (buy) and cheap. I would just shoot the factory loads, but there's just something about sending true lead you rolled yourself down range.

Bob F. · May 9, 2006, 08:07 AM

I'm not clear on this: are the primers coming out as the gun tries to load; that is, before the ammo is fired, or after firing?

Also, are you shoting a Glock with factory barrel? If so, shouldn't shoot lead per mfgr warning.

Stay safe.
Bob

Seto_Muuvari · May 9, 2006, 01:42 PM

No, after the round fires it extracts just fine. The primer comes out as it is leaving the extractor and the next round is coming into play. The primer then gets stuck between the slide and the barrel. The problem with the next round not going in is not a real problem, I just have to remove the mag and pull back the slide a little to let the primer drop free. THe problem is why the primers are coming out in the first place. I think I have WAY to hot of loads and it is pushing it out. The only thing that bothered me was that none of the primers that stayed in showed any signs of over pressure.

And this is in a CZ75 B not a glock.

dakotashooter2 · May 9, 2006, 03:30 PM

How did the primers seat when you put them in (tight, snug, easy)? you mentioned you inherited the loading equipment (and supplies?) If they went in easy it is possible the 3 previous firings on the cases might have been the ones that were hot and stretched out the primer pockets. While your loads are warm there still should be some sign of flattening of the primer and recoil should be noticable.

Seto_Muuvari · May 9, 2006, 07:19 PM

Thats the funny thing. When I first started to reload them they didn't want to go in at all. The first couple were quite tough. Then I noticed that the primer pockets were dirty. I grabbed a little brush and a small screwdriver and cleaned them out. Then they went in well. A couple of them were REALLY easy to put in, but they went into loads that weren't as hot. Those primers didn't come out.

The ones that did come out were a little tough at first, then they just slid in. With the press i have its a little weird. I loaded some other rounds last night (some really low ones for plinking) with fresh new once fired brass that I fired and they were a little stiffer than the ones that came out.

I received almost all the components I'm using now from my friend. The primers are from a bulk lot of 1000 that were bought about 8 months ago, the brass was fired 3 times before, and the bullets are a little older than the primers. The powder I bought just about a week ago.

I bought a primer pocket brush made by RCBS the day after I made my loads. Makes things a lot easier.

Seto_Muuvari · May 9, 2006, 07:22 PM

Oh forgot to mention that the recoil was no where near as bad as factory loads, and the primers look the same as I put them in except for the indent where the firing pin hit them.

You don't think that firing my 44 mag repeatedly could have made it so the recoil wasn't near as bad do you?

Just kidding. It was just something an idiot at the gun store suggested to me. I hate the guy.

May 7, 2006, 08:06 PM	#1
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	9mm Primers I just started to reload, in fact I reloaded my first rounds of 9mm just yesterday. I fire them in a CZ-75 B With no other options changed on it. Today I woke up to find a nice day, with little clouds and a little wind, so naturally I went to the range to try out my loads. I loaded up 50 rounds in all, and adjusted the loads to see which ones will work for me. I started at 2.9 grains of Win. 231 and worked up to 4.4 grains. These were all with 115 grain Lead round nose. I can't remember who makes them, but they seemed to work just fine. Now, I feel I must point out that I got all my reloading equipment (including the primers, cases, and bullets) from a friend who recently passed away. He left me all the reloading equipment, and his firearms. His family didn't want anything to do with them. I took out the loads, and found two loads that worked quite well. The one was a slow 3.5 grains that would work for plinking, and didn't recoil too bad. Then I noticed something quite odd hapening. Once I got to the 4.1 grain loads my CZ wouldn't close. It was as if something was blocking it. It only happened once with the 4.1 grains. I checked the primers thinking I had done something really bad and they looked just fine. They were still weak in comparison to the factory loads I had purchased. Then I tried the 4.4 grain loads. 3 out of 5 of them had the primers removed from the brass. They no longer stuck in there! What am I doing wrong? The recoil is still weak in comparison with the factory loads, and the primers on the other 2 were not bulged at all, not even touched other than the dent on the back where the firing pin had hit. WHY ARE MY PRIMERS FIRING OUT? While at the range I came to the conclusion that they were just old brass, and that maybe they had been reloaded way too many times. Then I came home and checked. This was their 3rd reload.

May 8, 2006, 12:10 AM	#2
epr105 Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sullivan County, New York Posts: 241	You dont say what primers you use or what you use to seat them. I know with Winchester primers they seem a little smaller than CCI. When you put the primer in are you using a LEE priming tool or are you using a progressive press? You might need to use CCI and make sure the primers are seated properly. Now if a round dosent chamber it could be a few reasons the brass might have the mouth expanded too much when you were seating the bullet. Lee has a nice factory crimp die that handles stuff like that. If you are unsure how old the componets are it might not be a good idea to use them. Good luck with reloading it is very addicting. Ed EPR105 __________________ Two to the chest and one to the head

May 8, 2006, 10:54 AM	#4
big jon Member Join Date: April 9, 2006 Posts: 65	?????????? ive been shooting for over30 years now including running a range for 4 and range master for several p.d.s and ive ony seen that once in my life time, i would suggest looking at all your reloading components and maybe have some one with more experance check it out with you maybe the powder went bad? i have no idea why you would have that happen, but you should defently stop till you get every thing checked out good luck

May 8, 2006, 09:14 AM	#3
Leftoverdj Senior Member Join Date: October 15, 2004 Posts: 934	Primer pockets expanded to the point that primers fall out is proof of dangerously high pressures. Stop untill you find out what is causing those pressures. One possibility is that your barrel is heavily leaded. A second is that the cases were fired with excessive loads before you got them. A third is that you made an error in charging or in the bullet weight. Whatever the problem was, it's extremely dangerous and has to be fixed before you shoot any more.

May 8, 2006, 06:04 PM	#6
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	Sorry, I guess my story telling is a little off. I use CCI 500 Small pistol primers. I am loading everything on a single stage RCBS press. I'd have to check the model. I use a priming tool that came with the press for it. I've only seen another like it and it's made by lee, it uses the press to insert the prmiers. i'll get more information, then post it about the primer loading tool I use. The reason the shells wouldn't load into the CZ was because the primers would fly out and get stuck between the slide and the barrel. The loads I was using felt VERY light in comparison to the factory loads, I know it's lead, but does that mean I have to load them that low? I'm beginning to think most of the problem was either excessive pressure, or just over used shells. I haven't had time to inspect the cases today, but I'll check them tonight. Thanks for the help so far!

May 8, 2006, 08:08 PM	#9
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	I finally broke down and went out to buy a couple new reloading books. The general rule seems to be the max load for 120 grain lead round nose is only 4.1 grains. I'll tone them down a little and see if that takes care of it. Thanks for all the help! I was using an older speer reloading book up until now, and it didn't have a load listed for lead bullets. The only other source I could find was online, so I just kinda winged it. Won't do that again! I'll also chuck out all the old components I can find. 9mm cases are easy to find (buy) and cheap. I would just shoot the factory loads, but there's just something about sending true lead you rolled yourself down range.

May 9, 2006, 08:07 AM	#10
Bob F. Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2004 Location: Southeastern WV (left out "north") Posts: 195	I'm not clear on this: are the primers coming out as the gun tries to load; that is, before the ammo is fired, or after firing? Also, are you shoting a Glock with factory barrel? If so, shouldn't shoot lead per mfgr warning. Stay safe. Bob

May 9, 2006, 01:42 PM	#11
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	No, after the round fires it extracts just fine. The primer comes out as it is leaving the extractor and the next round is coming into play. The primer then gets stuck between the slide and the barrel. The problem with the next round not going in is not a real problem, I just have to remove the mag and pull back the slide a little to let the primer drop free. THe problem is why the primers are coming out in the first place. I think I have WAY to hot of loads and it is pushing it out. The only thing that bothered me was that none of the primers that stayed in showed any signs of over pressure. And this is in a CZ75 B not a glock.

May 9, 2006, 03:30 PM	#12
dakotashooter2 Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2005 Posts: 498	How did the primers seat when you put them in (tight, snug, easy)? you mentioned you inherited the loading equipment (and supplies?) If they went in easy it is possible the 3 previous firings on the cases might have been the ones that were hot and stretched out the primer pockets. While your loads are warm there still should be some sign of flattening of the primer and recoil should be noticable.

May 9, 2006, 07:19 PM	#13
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	Thats the funny thing. When I first started to reload them they didn't want to go in at all. The first couple were quite tough. Then I noticed that the primer pockets were dirty. I grabbed a little brush and a small screwdriver and cleaned them out. Then they went in well. A couple of them were REALLY easy to put in, but they went into loads that weren't as hot. Those primers didn't come out. The ones that did come out were a little tough at first, then they just slid in. With the press i have its a little weird. I loaded some other rounds last night (some really low ones for plinking) with fresh new once fired brass that I fired and they were a little stiffer than the ones that came out. I received almost all the components I'm using now from my friend. The primers are from a bulk lot of 1000 that were bought about 8 months ago, the brass was fired 3 times before, and the bullets are a little older than the primers. The powder I bought just about a week ago. I bought a primer pocket brush made by RCBS the day after I made my loads. Makes things a lot easier.

May 9, 2006, 07:22 PM	#14
Seto_Muuvari Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2006 Posts: 9	Oh forgot to mention that the recoil was no where near as bad as factory loads, and the primers look the same as I put them in except for the indent where the firing pin hit them. You don't think that firing my 44 mag repeatedly could have made it so the recoil wasn't near as bad do you? Just kidding. It was just something an idiot at the gun store suggested to me. I hate the guy.