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February 28, 2009, 06:43 PM | #26 |
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"So, thus far critical thinking dictates a question; if you are inside your residence, and someone knocks on the door claiming to be the police, are you required by law to open the door?"
As far as I am concerned, ABSOLUTELY NOT! "And would any reasonable person go to the door at 0300 with a firearm in hand to see what the problem was?" I've you've lived in some of the placed I've had to due to financial circumstances. I'd durn tootin". We've been having some home invasions where one drug outfit pretends to be the law and does a SWAT type raid. You can darn well bet I'll be armed if someone knocks on my door at 0300 hours. Paul B.
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February 28, 2009, 07:16 PM | #27 |
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There is a difference between being armed when answering the door at 3AM, which I would do, and opening the door while pointing a gun at a police officer.
If you think you need to point a gun at the person who is a your door you have no business opening your door. If you are that unsure if the people at your door are in fact police I would not open the door and would place a call to 911. |
February 28, 2009, 07:28 PM | #28 | |
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February 28, 2009, 08:42 PM | #29 |
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I agree with Wild----It goes back to the resisting arrest post. Comply on scene, litigate Monday morning.
I am sorry, it is not reasonable for law abiding citizen to actively not answer the door for the Police. I won't even touch on the brandishing of a weapon Don't want to talk to the Police---fine, don't answer door. Then I would have to get a warrant and you won't be bothered, unless, there are exigent circumstances---hot pursuit, threat to life, etc. In the words of Dalton---"BE NICE" |
February 28, 2009, 10:36 PM | #30 | |
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I am going to ask a couple of questions that pertain to the circumstances under which the arrest being discussed was made.
Wagonman, You said: Quote:
If I am inside, hear the knock, hear someone announce "Police" and decide to remain quietly inside and not answer the door, how will this be handled? Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it? And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door? As you read these questions please remember, I ask only to try and learn, these are not jabs at the officers at all. I am trying to be clear on how this type of thing is actually handled.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; February 28, 2009 at 10:37 PM. Reason: to make it more clearer |
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February 28, 2009, 11:07 PM | #31 | |
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I never EVER thought I would say this.
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February 28, 2009, 11:33 PM | #32 |
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If I am inside, hear the knock, hear someone announce "Police" and decide to remain quietly inside and not answer the door, how will this be handled?
Will you simply walk away since you have no warrant, and that's it? -------------------------------------------------------------- I would radio my dispatcher and get a "callback" if there is no answer or voice mail I code out the job and jump back in the squad and leave with a hearty HI HO SILVER AWAY!!! ========================================================= And under the same circumstances, if I do open my mouth and tell you your services are not required, that I did not call, am I somehow now bound by some law to open the door? ----------------------------------------------------------------- It depends on the situation, if I have a REASONABLE suspicion something is going on that requires my intervention i.e. domestic battery, burglary etc. I can and will boot the door and handcuff everyone I think is a bad guy, and sort it out in the interview room at the station. That said, for me and just about any Copper I have worked with it has to be pretty cut and dried and the spidey sense has to be tingling for me to get into that kind of play. I understand the Civil Liberty arguement but, REASONABLE people will cooperate with a Police Officer investigating a crime as long as the the Police Officer is being REASONABLE. It is not UNREASONABLE to talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door. It is not illegal to not talk to a Police Officer that knocks on your door. But, decisions have consequences. If there is a "threat" to you it is not from a street cop it is from someone with a gold badge and wing tips |
March 1, 2009, 12:17 AM | #33 |
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Thanks Wagonman for the explaination, it does offer a "Street Cop's" point of view. Not that I disagree with it, just trying to gain some perspective as this story unfolds. And thanks for the job you (and others here) do.
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March 8, 2009, 10:32 PM | #34 |
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I had a similar experience with the Suffolk County Police Department on Long Island, New York. Same situation, after cuffing me in me under wear and taking me out of my Home(domain), they did a total search of my House without my permission in fact I told them they did not have my permission, they found to NY State grandfather "pre-ban rifles. They interrogated me at the precinct. And threw me in a holding cell,,this happened at 1 am, with a bunch of skells,,bear in mind I was never given the chance to put clothing on and was also bare footed. In their reports they noted that I did not resist arrest. They arrested me for menacing a police officer,,bear in mind they entered my home, before I could get to the door. Besides the idiots charged me with 2 felonies possession of 2 assault rifles! I was arraigned before the court still in my under wear and bare feet. As a retired NYDC(Rikers Island) Captain, I knew they screwed the pooch! Well a simple BATF check of the serial numbers would have opened their eyes immediately! So their I am before the Judge, I let him know of their total disregard for my Constitutional rights and that in fact they entered the wrong home,,and that if the morons checked the serial numbers etc. I would not have been violated as such as these nonprofessional's were.
Well, back to the holding cell,,then after a couple of hours I was before his Honor and released! Well, my wife who is a Cop returned home in the morning and asked the detectives searching and tearing about our home what the hell were they doing! One SCPD's finest said do you always keep a machine gun in your house! AR-15,,complete idiots. ca-ching! If I was African-american Al Sharton would have been marching his mob in front my local pct.! Boy did the shtf! The NYS SIC (Attorney jerks headed by Andrew the liberal as father where of no help),,The FBI could give a sht! So We sued them in Federal Court! Well, my kids can go to any University the want now. |
March 8, 2009, 10:37 PM | #35 |
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Good on you. Sorry for you aggravation.
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March 8, 2009, 10:38 PM | #36 |
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I am taking an LE class right now, as I am getting ready to apply for the Police force, and they way it was presented to me, according to federal law, it is a citizens right to resist unlawful arrest. But the catch is proving it is gonna be really hard to do. 95 percent of the time if you aren't guilty I would say the best option would be to let them take you downtown, get a bail bond, (if you need one), and then prove your not guilty in court, because if they decide it was a lawful arrest, you are going to face charges of resisting arrest.
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March 9, 2009, 09:17 AM | #37 |
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There is no good answer to this kind of situation. The cops screwed up, as did the HO. It seems alcohol may have played a role.
I don't have a problem with someone answering a pounding on the door at 3am with a gun in hand. Seems like a perfectly rational thing to do IMO. Pointing a gun at anyone (if that is what actually happened) that you have no intention to shoot is a real bad idea. Its unlikely we anyone will ever know what really happened. In most cases like this there is a story the police have that they stick to, and a story that the other side has that they stick to. No way to tell with any certainty who is telling the truth. Its even quite possible both sides believe their own stories.
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March 9, 2009, 10:35 PM | #38 | |
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http://www.examiner.com/x-536-Civil-...ho-scared-them
This was an interesting take on this incident by the civil liberties examiner. ^^ Quote:
I believe this is going to court in a few days, hopefully some new light will be shed. will post as news surfaces.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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March 17, 2009, 10:18 AM | #39 | |
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A bit more has come to light on this incident, seems the officers did NOT identify themselves. heads are starting to roll.
Quote:
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=10017849
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; March 17, 2009 at 10:58 AM. Reason: Spellin' and punkshewashun |
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March 17, 2009, 11:20 AM | #40 | |||
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Earlier in this thread Wild suggested that I critically anaylize this case not on individual circumstances, but on the face of circumstances as a whole.
So far these are the conclusions I can reach from facts and commentary by professional LE ; If a 911 call is dispatched to your address LE is going to respond, if you do not answer the door there are 2 possible outcomes... Quote:
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I wonder if the officers are going to just stand around and wait for this to happen or... Quote:
The fact that you have no rights in your own home, and to live without fear that this can happen to anyone , at any time. is very troublesome to me. I may change my mind as this moves forward, but right now it really seems quite screwed up.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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March 17, 2009, 01:44 PM | #41 | ||
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Unless, I hear fighting or crying or verbal threats from the other side of the door in which case----Game On Quote:
You do have rights. but, I have to be able to do my job. The flipside is : I go to home I hear furniture crashing, "stop hitting me", kids crying, etc but no answer to knocking or someone out of breath cracking the door and saying "everything's fine officer" so I leave without entering house. One hour later the homicide victim daughter calls 911 because Mommy isn't waking up. Then I am fired and probably charged and sued. But, on the bright side I respected the offenders right against illegal search. Last edited by Wagonman; March 17, 2009 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Grammar and clarity |
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March 17, 2009, 02:06 PM | #42 |
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Damned if you do and damned if you dont
And no matter what, beat up by a lawyer Thats why I passed on NYPD so many, many years ago WildtheessenceoflawenforcementAlaska ™ |
March 17, 2009, 04:02 PM | #43 | |||
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Quote:
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Wagonman I hear ya Bro. and I understand (or at least am beginning to) both sides, I respect the fact that there are going to be exigent circumstances, and you gotta do yer job, but in THIS case so many things just went so wrong. I see a slippery slope that could get "messy" when things like this happen, how does one prepare for such an event? As this comes to light more I may see that I am wrong, but this event, I see these guys as innocent bystanders or: Quote:
Yup.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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March 18, 2009, 03:32 PM | #44 |
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The police made a mistake and they compounded it by their actions.
If an arrest is unlawful, then the charge of resisting arrest has no merit and is therefore invalid. |
March 18, 2009, 03:51 PM | #45 |
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I agree police made a mistake and do not want to take responsibilty for their actions. Happens all the time.This is a simple case of officials hiding behind rules and regulations when they do the wrong thing. I guess to serve and protect has no meaning anymore.
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March 18, 2009, 04:50 PM | #46 | |
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Please Guys, this has been a good thread and a useful learning experience thus far, Us Joe citizens have been able to keep a civil discourse with some of our fine LE members and Legal Eagles, please read my initial post. Not accusing, just want to be clear that this thread is NOT going to be about bashing police. Thank You ! We now return you to the thread already in progress
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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March 18, 2009, 08:29 PM | #47 | |
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March 19, 2009, 05:40 AM | #48 | |
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In some states, even if the officer is way out of line in arresting you, "resisting arrest" is still a crime because some states no longer recognize a right or duty to resist unlawful actions by police. Note: fortunately such things are generally uncommon WRT police deliberately and maliciously arresting people without any cause.
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March 19, 2009, 11:52 AM | #49 |
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It is my understanding that you don't have the right to resist arrest except in some very very improbable circumstances.
However, as long as HC is in effect there is no real or should I say practical reason to resist arrest. If you resist arrest I guarantee you will be visiting at least an emergency room. If you don't resist arrest I guarantee you will earn at least $30,000 a hour for your false arrest incarceration. YMMV |
March 19, 2009, 01:15 PM | #50 |
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Why is the cop in question only facing/on suspension? Where a the assault, wrongful detention, brandishing a firearm and so on?
Did the homeowner handle is bad, I don't know. Maybe he didn't know they were cops until he opened the door. What I don't get is the home owner MAY have made a err in judgement. The cops DID err. And only the homeowner is facing criminal charges. That's not right.
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