Did Personal Protection TV endorse the .223 for home defense?

[spacecoast]

Don't know if anyone else caught the episode, but they showed pretty convincingly that that a 55gr. FMJ .223 round breaks apart before making it through 4 layers of wallboard, whereas both 9mm and .45 ACP rounds go through six without a problem, including one layer of external material that looked to be similar to stucco.

The implication was that the .223 "hits hard" but wouldn't endanger people in other rooms or outside the home as much as the heavier cartridges.

I wish they would have tried 12 and 20 gauge shotguns as well, and also a .38 FBI load.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Is that a different show than "The Best Defense"?

The Best Defense did a test, see here, but I was confused by the apparent difference between the commentary and the video....


It looked to me like the 223 blew a straight and increasingly large hole straight through all the walls. The commentary seemed to indicate that the penetration was LESS than the handgun rounds. I was confused.

[spacecoast]

It's definitely not the same test/program. The one I saw was on the Sportsmans Channel last evening at 6:30 Eastern. It's sponsored/directed by Hornady. The difference I saw was that the first wall was insulated. The results were similar, though, the .223 resulted in collateral damage being reduced/nil after two walls.

Thanks for the link.

[mete]

Just use the Federal 40 gr load !

[DRice.72]

Is that the same episode where they cleared the home? They also showed loading the pistol buy pulling the slide back to load the first round instead of using the slide release.

[Stevie-Ray]

Just use the Federal 40 gr load !

Is that one of those screamers like the 45 gr 3600 fps Winchester load? I've got some of those. Have they been shown to penetrate even less than the 55s? Reason I'm asking is that I'm interested in using my AR for home defense in my new home.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Is that one of those screamers like the 45 gr 3600 fps Winchester load? I've got some of those. Have they been shown to penetrate even less than the 55s?

The Federal 40gr .223 load only hits 3,270fps out of a 14.5" barrel; but it penetrates only 5.75" of bare gel at that speed.



While I am sure it is great for minimizing penetration concerns, you had better hope you have a nice, unobstructed frontal shot because otherwise that penetration is likely to be too shallow. There was a good discussion of this here (along with some good links on the subject):
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=333395

[Stevie-Ray]

Hmmm...maybe I'll stick to the Lake City M193 stuff.

[snevel]

He tried ball, soft point and frangible ammo out of .223 thru 4 walls of
sheet rock.

The ball and soft point penetrated all 4 walls. The frangible made it
thru the first.

See:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Simeon

[lawman1990]

I would not use a 223 for home defense, when the revolution starts,,,maybe, but as a prowler stopper a 12 guage is the way to go.
I have one on each floor of the house, first round is bird shot, won't go through floors or walls for the most part if you pop off a hurried shot. Then i load the rest with 00 buck. If the bad guy is dumb enough to keep comming, that will rip him in half.

[JohnH1963]

If you are firing on someone, then you probably have a good reason. You are most likely not firing at someone retreating out the front door, but someone who is charging at you or about to fire upon you or is firing on you. Lets say you fired upon someone who is retreating out of the house then I believe the DA might have some questions to ask you.

Therefore, if you are firing on someone in close quarters who represents an immediate threat then you want the bullet with the best penetration possible. You are not going to miss with an M16 or M4 or other rifle at less then 25 yards. Even if you did miss, there is very little chance it will ever hit anyone else...at least statistically speaking.

So if someone is about to fire on me or is firing on me I am not going to be so worried where my bullet goes and if there were gunshots I would expect for the general public to be diving and ducking.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Originally Posted by Stevie Ray

Hmmm...maybe I'll stick to the Lake City M193 stuff.

According to recent research: 70% of the time, M193 will travel 4.7" before yawing. 15% of the time it will travel less than that and 15% of the time, it will travel more than that. This means that 85% of the time, M193 will travel at least 4.7" before it even starts to yaw (meaning only a 0.22" hole).

Take a look at the long narrow "neck" for 55gr. Federal AE223 in the above picture to get an idea of what I am talking about. Now figure that the average human male is about 8"-9" deep from front to back. If you happen upon an unobstructed frontal shot, you are going to poke a 0.22" hole through most of the front and be well on your way to the back with the bullet exiting before it ever reaches its maximum cavity. In that same scenario - the 40gr Federal HP is going to be great.

However, flip it around where you have someone pointing a handgun at you and an intervening arm or shoulder and now the Federal 40gr is going to not reach the vitals at all and the 55gr M193 is going to be right on target. That is the dilemma of terminal ballistics.

However, you may also note that some of those rounds like the TRU223 64gr SP, 55gr LE223T1, and the 62gr LE223T3 would do well in either of those scenarios.

Originally Posted by lawman1990

I have one on each floor of the house, first round is bird shot, won't go through floors or walls for the most part if you pop off a hurried shot.

If it won't go through two 1/2" sheets of powdered gypsum with paper backing, then what do you think it is going to do when it hits skin, muscle and bone?

[michael t]

I have one on each floor of the house, first round is bird shot, won't go through floors or walls for the most part if you pop off a hurried shot. Then i load the rest with 00 buck. If the bad guy is dumb enough to keep comming, that will rip him in half.

Bird shot for birds If won't go thru dry wall. Then not much good on people either As for 00buck at 4 yds your pattern in a cyl bore barrel be about 4" easy to miss BG if firing from hip with a pistol grip and it will not rip him in half. Go test for your self Better yet don't shoot just rack the slide and watch them fall to floor begging not to be shot.

[lawman1990]

"Bird shot for birds If won't go thru dry wall"
_________________________________________________________________
It will go through drywall, i was making the point that if your first round is birdshot, and you have to get the shot off quickly and you miss, by the time it gets through the wall it hasn't got the enerygy to kill, not so with a 223.
Not to many bad guys will stay around for shot number 2 and if you do hit with the first shot from a close enough range, it will most asuredly end the confrontation.
And have you ever seen what a load of 00 buck does to a raccoon? I beg to differ.
My only point with the use of a shotgun is the safety of your family comes first. How would you ever live with yourself if you were confronted in your home and your own shot caused a tragedy.
Defending yourself and your loved ones INSIDE your home is a completly different story.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

It will go through drywall, i was making the point that if your first round is birdshot, and you have to get the shot off quickly and you miss, by the time it gets through the wall it hasn't got the enerygy to kill, not so with a 223.

Again, that is 1" of powdered gypsum with a paper backing. A 7yr old can put a hole through one side of that with a door knob by opening the door too quickly. If penetrating that causes it to lose all of its energy, then how deep will it penetrate in a person?

Not to many bad guys will stay around for shot number 2 and if you do hit with the first shot from a close enough range, it will most asuredly end the confrontation.

No, it will not "assuredly end the confrontation." In fact, there are numerous examples where it did not end the confrontation and at least one example where the bad guy killed the person who shot him IN THE FACE at HOUSEHOLD DISTANCES with birdshot. However, rather than drag this thread further off topic, I recommend any of these previous threads touching on that subject for a good discussion:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...light=birdshot
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...light=birdshot
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t+home+defense
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...t+home+defense

All I can say is that birdshot/40gr .223/etc. is LETHAL force. It can kill or seriously injure and the only justification for using it is that someone presents an immediate threat of death or serious injury to you or someone else.

I can't spesak for the rest of you; but in that situation I want to maximize the chances that I can end the confrontation quickly and with the minimal number of rounds. To that end, I want to tie up all the loose ends I can before such a confrontation. That means knowing what a particular round is likely to do with barrier penetration and using a round that will force the attacker to physically stop rather than rely on him changing his mind.

[Rampant_Colt]

They're called 'varmint' rounds and 'birdshot' for a reason. Does anybody here seriously think a six-foot-tall, 200+ pound drunk, tweaked on coke, meth, pcp, etc man is a varmint??

Save the lightweight 40gr Blitz, V-Max VARMINT rounds for groundhogs, squirrels and varmints. You're blowing this imaginary overpenetration issue way out of proportion. Those lightweight high-velocity bullets make nasty but shallow wounds.


Personally, i'll stick with my W-W 64gr and 75gr OTM 5.56mm

[Stevie-Ray]

According to recent research:

Thanks, Bart, some good reading there. I would be relying on my normal carry pistol for HD, but at my new house there are much longer possible fields of fire. I am far better with an AR-15 than ANY shotgun, though I intend to explore that possibility when I have more time and better range facilities.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You're welcome. Some other good information on .223 self-defense ammo:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf