Please tell me what these are

[Viper99]

I have a friend who wants to sell me these but I don't know what they are or if they are valuable. Are they really old or just replicas? value?
Thanks all for your help.

[Viper99]

Here are more pictures. I have not seem these personally so I am just hoping someone can identify these as collectable or garbage.

Again, thanks for all your help and time.

[sirgilligan]

Maybe a pair of Colt 1860 Army revolvers.

No idea if they are reproductions or not.

My uneducated opinion is the top one in the first image is a reproduction.
Possibly a Pietta?

I can't wait to see what others think.

[Bill DeShivs]

Take good, close-up pictures of the markings.

[Viper99]

These are phone pictures my friend send me. He says they are functional and look old. There is kind of a logo on the 605 picture. Is that a clue to someone?
Thanks.

[Jim Watson]

I cannot read the logo in the 605 picture but the revolver is definitely modern made, call it a "reproduction" of a gun that did not exist. Nobody made the 1860 with a brass frame in the 19th century.

I strongly suspect the other one is also a reproduction, it is just in too good condition to be an original in company with a repro.

[pendennis]

Both are replicas. As Jim Watson wrote, there were no Colt revolvers made with brass frames.

The brass frames aren't very durable, and they'll loosen up in no time at all when shot regularly. An occasional foray out with them is fun, but mostly they can be considered wall hangers after a while.

They can be purchased new for well under $200. Used, probably not more than $50.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a used blackpowder revolver. No telling how well they were cared for, even it they're safe to shoot.

[sirgilligan]

Here is a site I am browsing:

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/ad...3&subcatID=151

Here is one that has four screws.




And here is one that has three screws:



And finally some replicas:

http://www.midwayusa.com/Find?userSearchQuery=1860+army

http://www.discountcutlery.net/en-us/dept_21216.html

[Viper99]

sirgilligan,

Is it me or does it look like brass on the trigger guard? I am going to email my friend and ask him to send me any serial numbers / name on these guns. He did say that one was distintly older than the other.

Thanks for the info guys.

[sirgilligan]

Yes, the trigger guard does appear to be brass.

The Uberti replica has brass:


As well as the Pietta:


I think the top one in your first image is a Pietta. Notice the way the brass flows directly above the rear of the trigger guard. It is flat and then curves upward and then goes flat/straight above the trigger and past the front of the trigger guard.

Good luck. Don't pay too much for them or your friend, or whoever is buying them.

p.s. It has been fun researching this. The other guys that posted know more about it than me. I just thought I would take a stab at it.

[madcratebuilder]

Most Colt cap and ball had the brass trigger frame, some silver plated, a few are steel. Your photo's are of brass frame Italian reproductions. Brass frame revolvers can be shot with a reduce charge, I have a few that have been in service 40 years with reduced loads.

Not a lot of value, maybe $100 each. With the sale prices of new ones at places like Cabela's the resale is not much.

Lot of fun to shoot, You have to enjoy the reloading process as it is slow. Can be addicting.

[Viper99]

Thank you all so much. It is nice to know exactly where to go when you have a revolver question. I have asked my friend to send better pictures but at least right now I know what to look for.

[Fingers McGee]

The bass framed one appears to be a Navy Arms imported Uberti. The Logo looks like it could be RAG in a circle whould be replica arms that was bought by Navy Arms.

The CCH steel framed one appears to be a Pietta, from the grip shape.

It would help if you could get pictures of all the markings - or at least have them written down.

The brasser could be worth around $100, the CCH steel framed one around $185.

Cabelas has new Piettas on sale for $219 (CCH Steel frame), and I can't find a current Cabelas listing for the brass framed 1860; but they've been well under $200

[Doc Hoy]

The brass frame is a CVA import made by ASM. It will be marked under the loading lever. ("A.S.M.") I have two of these and they are not bad pistols. Load it light.

[briandg]

somebody tell me, was the extensive roll engraving on the cylinders a common thing in the past, or is that a completely new thing?

I know that there were a lot of engraved special issue guns, but back then it was hand work, and now, the stuff costs less than a couple bucks to apply when the equipment costs are considered.

When I see lots of fairly superficial engraving, to me, it says repro.

[sirgilligan]

No idea.

[Doc Hoy]

Engraving of the Colt with the battle scene from Texas Navy history was common.

[Hawg]

Engraved cylinders were Colt's unofficial trademark. R.A.G was Rigarmi.

[Andy Griffith]

IIRC, Colt utilized the roll stamping of the cylinders as a way keep their products from being copied- it made it easier for people to identify the fake, imported guns of the time. Even back then, these Colt revolvers were being copied.

At least, that's what *I think* I read somewhere. I've seen lots of copies of S&W's, but not many original period copies of Colts.

[Rawg the Huug]

Roll-engraved cylinders were indeed part of Colt's process, a design drawn by a fellow named Waterman Lilly Ormsby (now there's a handle!). Ormsby was, interestingly enough, a guy who designed bank notes.

The repros will have Ormsby's name also roll-engraved on the copy, as the copy is fairly absolute. There were several different designs, but as previously noted, the majority of these were of a scene in which the Texas Navy beat the sea-going snot outta...erm, I forget...somebody who lost (snicker).

Walkers & the subsequent Dragoons had scenes of the Texas Rangers fighting the Indians.

There were also scenes of a stagecoach hold-up, I believe these will be found on original Baby Dragoons & early Wells-Fargo models, but the Italian repros pretty much stick to the Navy battle, regardless of pistol type/size.

A few hunting scenes were also done; I'm not certain of this, but I think custom guns were the majority of those roll-engraved with anything other than the Naval battle. When Colt began converting their black powder revolvers in the late 60's they retained the roll-engraving, primarily because they had a plethora of parts they needed to move & there was no point in making new cylinders when those on hand were just fine for the conversion.

I'm unsure how to copy images from the net & paste them to a post, but a search for Colt roll engraving brought me a number of sites wherein these can be viewed & there are a number of books that depict much of what I've said, albeit with far more accuracy than my memory allows. Dennis Adler & RL Wilson being the two I am familiar with; their books are easy to find & somewhat easy to afford, though Wilsons' books become rather high-dollar once they are out of print (I recently picked up a book of his called The Paterson Colt Book: only 3,000 were printed, all signed & numbered; I got mine still wrapped in original plastic for $45, shipped...which astonished me, as the book has a $125 price printed on the inside of the jacket).

[Fingers McGee]

Originally Posted by Hawg

R.A.G was Rigarmi.

You're right Hawg. Sometimes I can't control my digits. The logo looks like the RA logo from Replica Arms - not not the Rigarmi RAG