Long gun thru mail, Fed-x, UPS-new twist

[gkdir]

Heres my deal. I live in Fla, relatives live in Kansas. They are not gun owners, I am. They have a varmint problem on land they own, they call me "hey bud, can you loan me a rifle to take care of a varmint problem we have". Ok, I box up a nice Ruger M77 Mark II in .223 (no ammo) and ship it who ever will take it, insured, signature required. They recieve it and the carranage begins. Question- have I broken any ATF regs. by loaning it to them, and shipping it to them? Thanks

[rwilson452]

in a word, YES! you broke the law. Interstate transfers must be done via an FFL.

[vranasaurus]

You cannot ship a gun to a private individual across state lines. The only people you can ship guns to outside of your state is an FFL.

Yes you have broken the law.

[rburch]

Only way to ship it cross state lines and not to a FFL is to ship it to yourself. But you have to be there to sign for it also.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe it's okay to leave it up there yourself.

For example say you live in Florida, but for some reason are going to have to live in DC for a bit. Your can't bring your guns into DC (well you could but not sure what the hoops are to do so) You're friend lives in Virginia. So you bring your gun on your trip, but drop it off at your friends before you enter DC. Then when you're done with DC you pick up the weapon on the way home.

Does that count as transferring it to the friend? I don't believe so.

Would it if you friend borrows it and takes it to the range one day?

[NavyLT]

1. You did not break Federal law by loaning them the gun:

18 USC 922(a)(5):

(a) It shall be unlawful—

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to

(A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and

(B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

Notice that there IS an exception above for loan of a firearm.

2. When they received the gun, they did violate Federal law:

18 USC 920(a)(3):

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

Notice in the above that there is NO exception for loan of a firearm.

3. When you shipped or mail the gun, interstate, to a non-FFL, you have violated Federal law if you did not notify the shipper, IN WRITING, the firearm you were shipping to a non-FFL:

18 USC 922(e):

(e) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped;

[NavyLT]

CAUTION: Dyslexia at it's best below. I misread what vranasaurus posted!

Originally Posted by vranasaurus

You cannot ship a gun to a private individual across state lines. The only people you can ship guns to outside of your state is an FFL.

Yes you have broken the law.

You are mistaken on a couple of points here.

1. A non-FFL can ship firearms to FFLs in any state. A non-FFL can even mail a rifle/shotgun to an FFL in any state using US Post Office.

2. It is generally ILLEGAL for an FFL to ship/mail a firearm to a private party out-of-state. Some exceptions are returning a firearm to the previous owner when repaired or replaced and to government agencies.

[vranasaurus]

You are mistaken on a couple of points here.

1. A non-FFL can ship firearms to FFLs in any state. A non-FFL can even mail a rifle/shotgun to an FFL in any state using US Post Office.

2. It is generally ILLEGAL for an FFL to ship/mail a firearm to a private party out-of-state. Some exceptions are returning a firearm to the previous owner when repaired or replaced and to government agencies.

How am I mistaken?

When shipping firearms outside of your state you can only ship to an FFL, excluding yourself.

Your first point is exactly what I said.

Your second point does not contradict what I said.

Please reread my post.

My post said:

The only people you can ship guns to outside of your state is an FFL.

and not:

The only people who can ship guns to outside of your state is an FFL.

[NavyLT]

I apologize, vranasaurus. My dyslexia was working overtime!

You are absolutely correct!

[vranasaurus]

I do it too from time to time.

I read and re read my post as you and I are usually in complete agreement about the implications and requirements of the GCA.

[blume357]

to a local FFL in Kansas and have them do a transfer to the relatives... Can you do this with a 'loaned' gun? Isn't there a catch 22 somewhere in here in that the only gobment form you can fill out for this is for the sale of a gun?

[vranasaurus]

to a local FFL in Kansas and have them do a transfer to the relatives... Can you do this with a 'loaned' gun? Isn't there a catch 22 somewhere in here in that the only gobment form you can fill out for this is for the sale of a gun?

It doesn't matter whether you are selling, loaning, and giving away a gun. If you ship it across state lines it has to go through an FFL.

Now if you were to drive across state lines and temporarily loan someone a gun in person then you wouldn't have to go through an FFL because the temporary loan of a gun does not have to go through an FFL.

The person above can ship the rifle to an FFL where his relatives can pick it up and then they can ship it back to an FFL where he can pick it up when they are done with it.

What I don't know the answer to is if the person ships the firearm to an FFL where his relative picked it up and then for some reason he planned ot drive to his relatives house for a visit and would then pick up the firearm. Would this constitute an interstate transfer and require the owner of the firearm to go through an FFL to get his gun back from his relative?

[Jkwas]

A handy link:

http://pe.usps.gov/text/pub52/pub52c4_009.htm

[brickeyee]

What I don't know the answer to is if the person ships the firearm to an FFL where his relative picked it up and then for some reason he planned ot drive to his relatives house for a visit and would then pick up the firearm. Would this constitute an interstate transfer and require the owner of the firearm to go through an FFL to get his gun back from his relative?

Since you transferred ownership/possession to them, it would need to come back the same way.

you can ship to yourself care of another person out of state, but the person must be instructed to NOT OPEN the package and take possession.

It is done all the time with guides for hunting and is legal.

[blume357]

gun to the folks via an FFL.... what kind of form is the FFL going to use for the 'loan'?

Sounds to me like you have to drive up and deliver the gun yourself.

[vranasaurus]

The FFL will use a 4473 just like they would for any transfer that goes through them.

[maestro pistolero]

Your scenario and question was hypothetical, RIGHT???????

[langenc]

Wow-several say YES law broken-one says NO..

Not everyone here is right!!! Cant be both ways.

[arkie2]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of the posts here. I just received a rifle from my mother shipped via the Post Office. We asked on both ends whether it was legal to ship the rifle via US mail and we both got the same response. As long as it's declared, the rifle isn't loaded and there is no ammo shipped with it, it's legal.

[NavyLT]

I'm going to have to disagree with most of the posts here. I just received a rifle from my mother shipped via the Post Office. We asked on both ends whether it was legal to ship the rifle via US mail and we both got the same response. As long as it's declared, the rifle isn't loaded and there is no ammo shipped with it, it's legal.

AND you are both RESIDENTS of the same state - then yes, it would be completely legal (in 48 or 49 states anyway!). If you are a resident of one state and she is a resident of another state, you have both committed felonies, violating 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and 18 USC 922 (a)(5) - that is written statute, very plainly written with NO ambiguity, and is not arguable.

[mapsjanhere]

You misread that, his mother was just shipping him his own rifle he left standing in a locked box at her place

[arkie2]

You misread that, his mother was just shipping him his own rifle he left standing in a locked box at her place


Correct!

[brickeyee]

"You misread that, his mother was just shipping him his own rifle he left standing in a locked box at her place"

If they are residents of the same state it is fine.

If they are NOT residents of the same state you have a problem.

YOU can ship YOUR rifle to YOURSELF in another state, or to a third party in another state if they DO NOT OPEN the package and take possession.

You cannot ship someone else's rifle to them in another state.

[gkdir]

WOW--opened up a can of worms. (Figured I would) One fellow asked if the question was "hypothetical". Initially it was, but so many different opinions have arisen, it has now evolved into the realm of, " Hmmmmm" (dangerous place, yet not one untrod). I know that legally I can "loan" a weapon to someone authorized to have it. I also know that I can legally ship "my rifle" to myself, in care of someone else, as long as it is declared at point of origin, and not opened at the recievers end,, except by myself (hmmmmm # 1) who the hell is going to know who opens it? Not a trouble maker guys, just one of those hard heads that insist on 100% proof positive if an outside source (not this forum obviously) is going to "TELL" me what I can or can't do. Let the dissertation continue !

[blume357]

makes felons out of everyday honest citizens just because it is an 'evil' gun.

[Blue Steel]

From the ATF Federal Firearms Regulation Guide:

May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A non licensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity?

Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


I can't find any good information about dealer requirements when transfering a firearm shipped interstate for the purposes of loan instead of sale. I can't believe these statues aren't crystal clear and easy to understand (rolls eyes).