00 Buck or #1 ??? - Page 2

oberkommando · July 31, 2000, 07:09 AM

Dave no need for the marines just one Flamethrower (the ultimate close range gun)

As to the handgun preferance over the shotgun I remember a test of handgun and shotgun "masters class shooters" from ready position, and holster for the handguns, the shotguns won everytime.
As to large pellet count 3" no.4 with 41 pellets just one should do it. If you are very close and dont want to penetrate the walls much maybe rock salt. A buddy of mine shot a 3/4" piece of plywood at about a yard and the rat hole was impressive, and the shot that left was just a bunch of powder on his fireplace (the garage side).

If you need more power to penetrate 3" 000 will get through most and retain energy farther out than all the rest. Past 25 yards would definityly prefer slugs over handgun.

Dave McC · July 31, 2000, 10:49 AM

We may be splitting hairs here, in debates about the best size. Southern deer hunters have led the search for improvements in Buck peformance. ALL buck now patterns much better than it used to. Buffering, load development,
rounder shot,harder or plated shot, have all helped the patterns stay tight. Shooting old buck, say 1960s or 70s vintage, shows just how far we've come.

The key is just like slug research. Buy a bunch of those little 5 packs of varied brands and sizes, test it, and then buyamessa whatever works best for its specified mission.

Anything requiring ranges past 15 yards, I'd prefer big pellets. Inside, it all hits like a solid projectile anyway,so maybe a 00 or 000 load for when one may have to go outside,(like in civil disturbances, catastrophes) and maybe bird shot inside to cut down on penetration.....

Dave T · August 1, 2000, 02:33 AM

I did some research for my Department and found the Federal Premium 12 pellet 00 Buck (2 3/4") to be both the most effective and the best patterning of all loads tested. It was very impressive.

Dave T
PCSD Ret

Dave McC · August 1, 2000, 06:37 AM

Dave, how many shotguns did you use in that test? IME, each one may "Prefer" a different load.Some loads do do better than others overall, but hardnfast results are slippery.

In a perfect world, each dept would ISSUE a shotgun,correctly stocked,to an officer who would test for the best ammo for that weapon and then use it....

Solitar · August 1, 2000, 11:32 PM

Outside the home in a defense situation against a small bunched-up crowd of angry, drunk, stoned thugs (such as when the bar across the street would empty out and come en-masse over to help their buddy bust windows or break heads - as perhaps in Seattle or LA during the riots) THEN I would want as many 9-pellet 000 buck 3" loads as the magazine could hold. A possibly better choice would be an AK with a two-hundred round drum or a few grenades BUT given that I'm limited to a shotgun, then I want to engage them at 20 yards with enough penetration and spread to have adequate effect (12 pellet 00 buck 3" Sellier&Bellot would effect a broader pattern, but potential overpenetration of 000 buck pellets would NOT be a disadvantage with such a mob).

DaMan · August 2, 2000, 12:37 AM

I've experimented with EVERY size of buckshot in both reloads and factory cartridges. From 7 feet to 150 yds.! I've come to the same conclusion as the commercial ammo manufacturers. The 9 x pellet 00Buck "tactical load" is the way to go in the 12ga. A "scaled down" load of 9 x #1 Buck, would be my choice for the 20ga. Unfortunately this is not available in a factory load.

Regards! DaMan

Dave T · August 2, 2000, 07:12 PM

DaveMacc,

I first used my personal 870. Then tried the same tests with several departmental 870, one High Standard and an 1897 Winchester Riot Gun.

Since retiring I've used it in my M3S90 (my current defensive shotgun) and another 870. It has consistantly patterned better than the Federal Premium 9 pellet load and both of those will outshoot most other 00 Buck loads I've tried.

Dave T
PCSD Ret

Dave McC · August 2, 2000, 10:07 PM

Thanks, Dave. I may be behind the curve again. Haven't done much 00 or testing since retiring.

July 31, 2000, 07:09 AM	#26
oberkommando Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 1999 Posts: 1,158	Dave no need for the marines just one Flamethrower (the ultimate close range gun) As to the handgun preferance over the shotgun I remember a test of handgun and shotgun "masters class shooters" from ready position, and holster for the handguns, the shotguns won everytime. As to large pellet count 3" no.4 with 41 pellets just one should do it. If you are very close and dont want to penetrate the walls much maybe rock salt. A buddy of mine shot a 3/4" piece of plywood at about a yard and the rat hole was impressive, and the shot that left was just a bunch of powder on his fireplace (the garage side). If you need more power to penetrate 3" 000 will get through most and retain energy farther out than all the rest. Past 25 yards would definityly prefer slugs over handgun.

July 31, 2000, 10:49 AM	#27
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	We may be splitting hairs here, in debates about the best size. Southern deer hunters have led the search for improvements in Buck peformance. ALL buck now patterns much better than it used to. Buffering, load development, rounder shot,harder or plated shot, have all helped the patterns stay tight. Shooting old buck, say 1960s or 70s vintage, shows just how far we've come. The key is just like slug research. Buy a bunch of those little 5 packs of varied brands and sizes, test it, and then buyamessa whatever works best for its specified mission. Anything requiring ranges past 15 yards, I'd prefer big pellets. Inside, it all hits like a solid projectile anyway,so maybe a 00 or 000 load for when one may have to go outside,(like in civil disturbances, catastrophes) and maybe bird shot inside to cut down on penetration.....

August 1, 2000, 02:33 AM	#28
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	I did some research for my Department and found the Federal Premium 12 pellet 00 Buck (2 3/4") to be both the most effective and the best patterning of all loads tested. It was very impressive. Dave T PCSD Ret

August 1, 2000, 06:37 AM	#29
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Dave, how many shotguns did you use in that test? IME, each one may "Prefer" a different load.Some loads do do better than others overall, but hardnfast results are slippery. In a perfect world, each dept would ISSUE a shotgun,correctly stocked,to an officer who would test for the best ammo for that weapon and then use it....

August 1, 2000, 11:32 PM	#30
Solitar Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2000 Location: Solitary Posts: 717	Outside the home in a defense situation against a small bunched-up crowd of angry, drunk, stoned thugs (such as when the bar across the street would empty out and come en-masse over to help their buddy bust windows or break heads - as perhaps in Seattle or LA during the riots) THEN I would want as many 9-pellet 000 buck 3" loads as the magazine could hold. A possibly better choice would be an AK with a two-hundred round drum or a few grenades BUT given that I'm limited to a shotgun, then I want to engage them at 20 yards with enough penetration and spread to have adequate effect (12 pellet 00 buck 3" Sellier&Bellot would effect a broader pattern, but potential overpenetration of 000 buck pellets would NOT be a disadvantage with such a mob).

August 2, 2000, 12:37 AM	#31
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	I've experimented with EVERY size of buckshot in both reloads and factory cartridges. From 7 feet to 150 yds.! I've come to the same conclusion as the commercial ammo manufacturers. The 9 x pellet 00Buck "tactical load" is the way to go in the 12ga. A "scaled down" load of 9 x #1 Buck, would be my choice for the 20ga. Unfortunately this is not available in a factory load. Regards! DaMan

August 2, 2000, 07:12 PM	#32
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	DaveMacc, I first used my personal 870. Then tried the same tests with several departmental 870, one High Standard and an 1897 Winchester Riot Gun. Since retiring I've used it in my M3S90 (my current defensive shotgun) and another 870. It has consistantly patterned better than the Federal Premium 9 pellet load and both of those will outshoot most other 00 Buck loads I've tried. Dave T PCSD Ret

August 2, 2000, 10:07 PM	#33
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Thanks, Dave. I may be behind the curve again. Haven't done much 00 or testing since retiring.