Turret press users... 3 hole or 4 hole plate?

[Arub]

I only load pistol caliber with my Lee. I set up my dies/plates only once per caliber and then just tweak the seating die if I change bullet types.

[Lost Sheep]

Let me start out by apologizing for what might seem to be taking FrankenMauser to task. That is not my intention. I just want to address the perfectly legitimate points he made, with which I happen to disagree.

Originally Posted by FrankenMauser

Posts: 4,133 I understand the theory behind "leaving the dies adjusted", but that only works if you have ONE load per die set. If you have more loads in a particular cartridge, than die sets for that cartridge, it completely negates the whole argument.

As soon as you want to try a new bullet, new OAL, change your trim length, make any other change to the load, or have to work on a different already-established load, the dies have to be adjusted, anyway.

For leaving something set dead-nuts, I have Dillon 550B tool heads. All I have to do is swap tool heads (and the primer feed, if needed), add primers, add powder, and I'm running with it.

Completely negates? Not completely. Partly, sure. But no more so than on any press with swappable tool heads, be it a turret press, progressive or breech-lock single stage.

I'm not trying to say that my way is best, or that any other way is wrong. I just don't understand the appeal of an auto-indexing turret press. It isn't as efficient as a progressive press.

Efficient? I'm not so sure about that. Faster, yes, absolutely. Efficiency depends on what your are measuring. Efficient per unit effort (physical or mental), efficient for cost, efficient for setup time. You may get different answers for different press types and even for different users.

It isn't as accurate as a single stage.

Maybe right, but it will depend on which single stage. Even though it is a turret with clearances and moving parts the design of the Turret Ring surely does a good job of maintaining alignment. But a single stage of equal stiffness probably is marginally more accurate on runout and length.

And, it doesn't provide as many stations as the Redding T-7 (7) or Lyman T-Mag II (6).

Too true. If you need more than 4 stations, the Lee loses virtually all its worth.

I am, however, working on an idea that will cure that. A linear turret press. The auto-advance is even workable, but when you get to the last die, the carriage return has got me stumped.

It probably doesn't help, though, that at least once a week we get a thread along the lines of "Help! My Lee Classic Turret won't index", followed closely by things like "Classic Turret crushing primers" or "Classic Turret gets stuck half way between station 2 and 3". Perhaps it's selective memory, but I swear we get more "Help!" threads for Classic Turrets, than we do for any other press.

That is something you should be able to quote statistics on. I agree with dacaur's assessment.

...and to me, it makes perfect sense. If you want auto-indexing, buy a progressive press.

Not all progressives have auto-indexing, though lack of it does not seem to hurt the Dillon as much as lack of auto-indexing does all turrets.

If the point of the purchase is production and automation, why waste your time with a turret press? Jump right to the big(ger) guns, and get the progressive.

Production rate was only part of the point (for me) and automation was of no interest whatsoever.

A single stage press is virtually forced to batch mode. Turret presses can do batch or continuous. With continuous processing and manual indexing I can easily double my production rate (over a single stage). With the auto-indexing of the Lee Turret, triple or quadruple.

I like continuous processing (which is the natural state of progressive presses) and that the Lee Turret very naturally does that is great for me. That it takes four times the ram strokes a progressive takes is a small drawback, but it is only a small sacrifice.

I swap calibers often enough that the less than one minute swap time was worth more to me than the 10 minute to 30 minute swap time of a progressive. I know the math doesn't work out, but the convenience factor (and efficiency of the parts count) is worth it.

What primarily turned me off my progressives was that I wanted to watch each operation carefully with full attention and watching multiple operations simultaneously was not a pleasant experience for me. With the turret, I can watch the assembly of the cartridge step by step, in logical order and be confident no step was left out or poorly performed.

Now, dacaur. Your turn

Originally Posted by dacaur

sure, but with a turret, all your dies for that caliber are all together in one piece, rather than having 2-4 separate pieces.... get 6 or 7 calibers, and you can have 12-28 dies rolling around in a drawer, or 6-7 turrets, guaranteeing that all dies for the caliber you want to load are right where you can get at them.... turn of the turret.... that alone is worth the few extra $'s a turret press will cost ya...

I often use my lee turret press as a single stage when doing rifle rounds, but the convenience of not having to worry about a die rolling off the table when I switch them out is priceless...

I NEVER had a problem with individual dies rolling around. I kept their nesting box on the table and when I swapped dies the ones not in the press were in their individual nests in the box. The boxes resided in the drawer. The dies never mixed up and are as ding-free as the day I bought them. Of course, now, most reside in turrets in the round Lee boxes in a toolbox. More portable than a drawer.

Lost Sheep

[dickttx]

"I'm not trying to say that my way is best, or that any other way is wrong. I just don't understand the appeal of an auto-indexing turret press. It isn't as efficient as a progressive press. It isn't as accurate as a single stage. And, it doesn't provide as many stations as the Redding T-7 (7) or Lyman T-Mag II (6). "

Unless you need to load a few thousand rounds at a time I see no use for the progressive. I shoot about 10,000 rounds a year, total, in a half dozen calibers. If I used a progressive efficiently I would have my whole garage stacked with ammo in a short time. I shoot primarily 9mm and 45 ACP and never have more than 500 loaded at a time for each.
For the thousand reloaders that enjoy the production of the LCT, there are probably 10 that need the output of your Dillon.
I, frankly, would feel like an idiot for spending the amount needed to outfit a Dillon for six calibers to produce what I shoot.
That is the appeal of an auto-indexing turret press

[dacaur]

Yea I can see a progressive would be good for some people, but I too dont shoot all that much.... if I shoot 250 rounds of 9mm in a month thats a lot. Ill shoot probably 300-500 rounds of .308win in a YEAR, and will probably shoot 1000 rounds of 30-30 this year..... A progressive would be a huge waste on me, plus like above, I like to watch each process as it happens to make sure its happening right. You will never see me pumping the handle like mad trying to make as much ammo as I can as fast as I can.... The most I have ever made at one sitting is about 150 rounds of 9mm..... I have a lee deluxe turret now, but will be upgrading to a lee classic turret within the next year or three.... Even if a progressive were the same price, I would stick with a turret, simply for simplicity and being able to watch things happen at my own pace....

[Ridgerunner665]

I am, however, working on an idea that will cure that. A linear turret press. The auto-advance is even workable, but when you get to the last die, the carriage return has got me stumped.

By hand...like an old type writer...thats the only option you have without getting into electronics or pneumatics.

A counterweight slide might work...but would be kinda awkward as far as mounting the press and all.

I have kicked around the same idea you have a few times myself...

[ScottRiqui]

I was thinking of a spring on the linear rack that holds the dies. As you progress from die to die, you're extending the spring. As you pull the lever after the last die, the rack hits a release pawl that allows the spring to pull the rack back to the starting position. The "starting position" could be adjusted so that the rack wouldn't go all the way back to the beginning, in case you weren't using all of the available die locations for a particular caliber.

[Lost Sheep]

The counterweight idea is a good one, but Ridgerunner, you are right about the difficulty of mounting and implementing it. But it does have the advantage of providing a constant force.

ScottRiqui, the carriage return idea is the only way that I have found practical for returning the dies to station 1. However the timing of the return release was solved by having the carriage only as long as the number of dies (alternatively, a device to detect an empty station and initiate the return at that time). That is, the "carriage" for the dies would only have as many stations as I had dies. Reach the end of the carriage (or the first empty station) and the return initiates. Alternatively, a return could be initiated by the operator pressing a button. Easy enough and not THAT much more effort than what the Lee requires now (zero, or a stroke at an empty station for those of us using 3-die sets).

Thank you both for your thoughts.

Right now, my first priority is a primer dispenser that will reliably feed the last, single, primer.

Lost Sheep

[FrankenMauser]

Thanks for the reply, Lost Sheep.

I think we both understand each other better, now.

I am, however, working on an idea that will cure that. A linear turret press. The auto-advance is even workable, but when you get to the last die, the carriage return has got me stumped.

I've seen one.... (No auto-return, though.)
Now I have to track down a photo.

Edit:
Oh... it was here on TFL, the C&H Super Slide:

[CrustyFN]

I'm not trying to say that my way is best, or that any other way is wrong. I just don't understand the appeal of an auto-indexing turret press. It isn't as efficient as a progressive press. It isn't as accurate as a single stage. And, it doesn't provide as many stations as the Redding T-7 (7) or Lyman T-Mag II (6).

This is my take on it. To me the appeal of the auto indexing turret is to be able to load 200 rounds per hour at a comfortable pace. That can't be done on the other turrets. For somebody loading a few hundred rounds a month most progressives are overkill especially the price difference. I actually know two people that sold Dillon 550's and bought Lee classic turret's because the Dillon was a lot more press than they needed. They are both very happy with their choice. For somebody that loads a couple hundred rounds of a few different calibers the classic turret is the perfect choice there. I have a classic turret and Dillon 550 and wouldn't want to do that many caliber changes on the 550. As far as accuracy I can shoot sub MOA with the 223 rounds loaded on my classic turret and also 550. Neither press makes better ammo. Not sure how much more accurate a single stage would be. This is just my view from what fits my needs.

[markr]

I was wondering if anybody here has converted their Classic Turret handle to a roller handle?

[Lost Sheep]

Frankenmauser, thank you. That photo (post #33) is a treasure.

The C-H press is almost EXACTLY what I have been sketching for several months now. The main differences are (on mine) the dies advance left-right instead of fore-aft and the bar on which the dies mount can vary in length (from 1 station to as many as you want).

You are great and TFL rocks!

Thanks again.

Lost Sheep

(I have invented many things in my life, including a timed, self-closing toilet seat that the wives of men all over the world would appreciate and side doors on my camper shell, only to find that someone else already "stole" my idea, sometimes decades before.)

[CrustyFN]

I was wondering if anybody here has converted their Classic Turret handle to a roller handle?

I haven't. I sit at an angle where the roller handle won't work for me. I did put on a billiard ball and it made a world of difference. It was so comfortable that I put them on all my presses. Can't see it in this picture but my 550 has a blue 2 ball.