Any Cerakote experts out there? Cerakote over K-Phos?

porters · April 6, 2015, 11:00 PM

Hi guys,
I know there are some guys that really know their stuff and might be willing to help me out... I have done some refinishing with Gun-Kote but have decided to try Cerakote H series on my next project... I have had pretty good results with Gun-Kote over K-Phos... Since I already have the K-Phos is there any benefit in applying a coat of K-Phos before top coating with Cerakote? Also this is a Remington 870 that I'm redoing as a tactical home defense gun. Using a Magpul stock set in FDE and Cerakoting the gun with Patriot Brown what is the most popular sheen with the Cerakote? Either Matte or satin is what I'm thinking... The reason I ask is that Gun-Kote's satin is much more of a semi gloss and the flat is much more of a satin... So I'm not sure how Cerakote works out as far as sheen goes... I'm looking for a finish that just has a little bit of side sheen nothing too shiny... Any help is greatly appreciated!

porters · April 7, 2015, 07:00 PM

Nobody?

It really seems like Cerakote over K-Phos is a good idea but man I don't want to ruin this project.... I was hoping to hear from people that have tried it and had good results.... Maybe I will have to be the first one and give a report on how it performs. If anyone has used Cerakote over K-Phos I sure would like to hear how it turned out! Any help would be great!

**Unclenick** · April 7, 2015, 07:18 PM

Usually paints like phosphate conversion coatings, like zinc Parkerizing, as an anchor, but Cerakote's own manual and their own YouTube video don't mention it. Also, zinc phosphate conversion coatings are porous, providing a mechanical anchor that K-phos, being sealed, may not. K-phos may provide a surface that Gun Kote likes, but Cerakote uses a hardener, like an epoxy does, and it I've seen epoxies that stick like crazy to some metal surfaces and peel right off others, so it's possible it wouldn't get along with K-phos surfaces.

I'm sure K-phos and zinc Parkerizing have both been tried with Cerakote. Just not by someone who's seen this thread. I would call the maker and inquire whether or not they recommend for or against it. I'm sure they'll be aware of someone who has tried it or they will have tried it themselves.

porters · April 7, 2015, 08:31 PM

Thank you Unclenick! I did call them but the gentleman I talked with at Cerakote was unfamiliar with K-Phos and just said all the testing they have done was to bare blasted metal so he wasn't sure what the outcome would be .... K-Phos seems to help with GunKote so I was thinking it would do the same for Cerakote but now I'm thinking that I have too much time and money wrapped up into this project without a for sure answer to be gambling if it would work or not... I think maybe I will just stick to using the Cerakote without using the K-Phos... If anyone has used this combo before I sure would like to hear about your experience!

**Unclenick** · April 8, 2015, 10:26 AM

My favorite chemistry professor always said that he wasn't interested in anything he couldn't do in a test tube. In other words, don't waste a lot on test samples. I think that's where you are with this. I would get a sixteenth inch flat sheet of steel from Lowe's and cut some test strips, drill hanger holes in and maybe even stamp numbers in, then degrease and blast them. Measure the thickness of each one with a micrometer that resolves a tenth of a thousandth. Degrease them identically, then leave a couple bare, K-phos a couple and, if you have it, zinc or even manganese Parkerize additional pairs. I would bake them all the same way so oxidation does whatever it is going to do uniformly. Then apply a test application of the cerokote to just one plate of each pair. Afterward, I would measure them all again to see what the cumulative coating had done to thickness.

Then I would hang them all outside for a few weeks of the season's rain and sun. The uncoated control plates will tell you how the corrosion resistance of the bare plate and phosphated plates compare. If all the Cerakote plates hold up to that, I would try scuffing them with a large ball bearing to see if I could tell which finishing broke down most easily. You could try seeing how long it takes a wire brush to scratch through. I think if there's an adhesion problem, that will tell you.

Another thing to try would be to blast and degrease some stainless wire before applying the Cerakote and stretch it straight and lay it on the plates with one end hanging over the edge as a gripping point just before applying the Cerakote. The Cerakote would then glue the wire to the plate, and if you can get fairly uniform contact, you may be able to test adhesion by how many pound on a fishing scale it takes to pull the wires off. Even if you just do it by hand, if there's a failure to adhere you should see a bigger peel off around where the wire lay.

porters · April 11, 2015, 11:00 AM

Thanks unclenick, Ī Cerakoted my shotgun yesterday going very light coats and you could really see the first coat absorbing into the metal so I can really see the benefit to going over bare metal... I mixed up the amount that Cerakote recommends for a rifled action and had a lot left over! kinda a bummer to toss that material. I have enough left over to coat an old and very rough shape H&R .22 revolver that was given to me and I have some old cutup sections of an old .22 barrel that I will experiment with the K Phos with at that time and I will come back and post some results.... Thanks for taking the time to try and answer my question!

tobnpr · April 11, 2015, 01:06 PM

So...I'd never heard of KG's "K-Phos" before, and since I shoot Gun-Kote darn near every day I figured I'd better find out about it.

Their website is really lacking in information (unless I'm just too stupid to find the links). No MSDS, no application instructions, nothing...

What I was really looking for was the dry film thickness of the stuff...
Tolerances are extremely small with some firearms/parts, and adding more coating thickness than absolutely needed onto something like a precision-fit 1911 slide would be a disaster.

This is where Cerakote shines (and is often preferred to Gun-Kote)...

I see where KG recommends it as a base coat, but no other info on thickness. In any case, I've not had any issues with adhesion on 100 mesh blasted steel...so since it ain't broke, I guess I won't try to fix it.

porters · April 12, 2015, 12:07 AM

Tobnpr,
K-Phos is a Phosphoric Acid based product and it aids in adhesion and corrosion resistance... On the bottle it claims to take the place of phosphating tanks... I did some tests with Gun Kote with and without the K-Phos I had blasted the parts with 120 grit first and I felt like it gave Gun Kote a better grip on the metal.... I'm not really sure if it adds any mil thickness to your finished product... It goes on really light and seems to absorb into the metal as opposed to on top of it and darkens the metal a bit. Any case if you have any questions I would give them a call they are always very helpful the few times that I called with questions... That being said I was really impressed with the Cerakote that I applied this weekend... The only down part I could say about Cerakote is that once the product is mixed any unused product is tossed unlike the Gun Kote that I can just pour the unused product back into the container... My first impressions is that Cerakote is a little tougher product.

tobnpr · April 12, 2015, 10:07 AM

Cerakote (the bake-on ceramic) is definitely tougher than the Gun-Kote.
Not familiar with their new air-cured version, but I'll probably try it.
I'd use Cerakote instead of Gun-Kote, were it not for the often very small amounts I need on a daily basis.

April 6, 2015, 11:00 PM	#1
porters Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Posts: 5	Any Cerakote experts out there? Cerakote over K-Phos? Hi guys, I know there are some guys that really know their stuff and might be willing to help me out... I have done some refinishing with Gun-Kote but have decided to try Cerakote H series on my next project... I have had pretty good results with Gun-Kote over K-Phos... Since I already have the K-Phos is there any benefit in applying a coat of K-Phos before top coating with Cerakote? Also this is a Remington 870 that I'm redoing as a tactical home defense gun. Using a Magpul stock set in FDE and Cerakoting the gun with Patriot Brown what is the most popular sheen with the Cerakote? Either Matte or satin is what I'm thinking... The reason I ask is that Gun-Kote's satin is much more of a semi gloss and the flat is much more of a satin... So I'm not sure how Cerakote works out as far as sheen goes... I'm looking for a finish that just has a little bit of side sheen nothing too shiny... Any help is greatly appreciated!

April 7, 2015, 07:18 PM	#3
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Usually paints like phosphate conversion coatings, like zinc Parkerizing, as an anchor, but Cerakote's own manual and their own YouTube video don't mention it. Also, zinc phosphate conversion coatings are porous, providing a mechanical anchor that K-phos, being sealed, may not. K-phos may provide a surface that Gun Kote likes, but Cerakote uses a hardener, like an epoxy does, and it I've seen epoxies that stick like crazy to some metal surfaces and peel right off others, so it's possible it wouldn't get along with K-phos surfaces. I'm sure K-phos and zinc Parkerizing have both been tried with Cerakote. Just not by someone who's seen this thread. I would call the maker and inquire whether or not they recommend for or against it. I'm sure they'll be aware of someone who has tried it or they will have tried it themselves. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 8, 2015, 10:26 AM	#5
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	My favorite chemistry professor always said that he wasn't interested in anything he couldn't do in a test tube. In other words, don't waste a lot on test samples. I think that's where you are with this. I would get a sixteenth inch flat sheet of steel from Lowe's and cut some test strips, drill hanger holes in and maybe even stamp numbers in, then degrease and blast them. Measure the thickness of each one with a micrometer that resolves a tenth of a thousandth. Degrease them identically, then leave a couple bare, K-phos a couple and, if you have it, zinc or even manganese Parkerize additional pairs. I would bake them all the same way so oxidation does whatever it is going to do uniformly. Then apply a test application of the cerokote to just one plate of each pair. Afterward, I would measure them all again to see what the cumulative coating had done to thickness. Then I would hang them all outside for a few weeks of the season's rain and sun. The uncoated control plates will tell you how the corrosion resistance of the bare plate and phosphated plates compare. If all the Cerakote plates hold up to that, I would try scuffing them with a large ball bearing to see if I could tell which finishing broke down most easily. You could try seeing how long it takes a wire brush to scratch through. I think if there's an adhesion problem, that will tell you. Another thing to try would be to blast and degrease some stainless wire before applying the Cerakote and stretch it straight and lay it on the plates with one end hanging over the edge as a gripping point just before applying the Cerakote. The Cerakote would then glue the wire to the plate, and if you can get fairly uniform contact, you may be able to test adhesion by how many pound on a fishing scale it takes to pull the wires off. Even if you just do it by hand, if there's a failure to adhere you should see a bigger peel off around where the wire lay. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 11, 2015, 01:06 PM	#7
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	So...I'd never heard of KG's "K-Phos" before, and since I shoot Gun-Kote darn near every day I figured I'd better find out about it. Their website is really lacking in information (unless I'm just too stupid to find the links). No MSDS, no application instructions, nothing... What I was really looking for was the dry film thickness of the stuff... Tolerances are extremely small with some firearms/parts, and adding more coating thickness than absolutely needed onto something like a precision-fit 1911 slide would be a disaster. This is where Cerakote shines (and is often preferred to Gun-Kote)... I see where KG recommends it as a base coat, but no other info on thickness. In any case, I've not had any issues with adhesion on 100 mesh blasted steel...so since it ain't broke, I guess I won't try to fix it. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

April 12, 2015, 10:07 AM	#9
tobnpr Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2010 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 4,556	Cerakote (the bake-on ceramic) is definitely tougher than the Gun-Kote. Not familiar with their new air-cured version, but I'll probably try it. I'd use Cerakote instead of Gun-Kote, were it not for the often very small amounts I need on a daily basis. __________________ Remington 700/Savage Rebarreling /Action Blueprinting 07 FFL /Mosin-Nagant Custom Shop/Bent Bolts Genuine Cerakote Applicator www.biggorillagunworks.com

April 7, 2015, 07:00 PM	#2
porters Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Posts: 5	Nobody? It really seems like Cerakote over K-Phos is a good idea but man I don't want to ruin this project.... I was hoping to hear from people that have tried it and had good results.... Maybe I will have to be the first one and give a report on how it performs. If anyone has used Cerakote over K-Phos I sure would like to hear how it turned out! Any help would be great!

April 7, 2015, 08:31 PM	#4
porters Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Posts: 5	Thank you Unclenick! I did call them but the gentleman I talked with at Cerakote was unfamiliar with K-Phos and just said all the testing they have done was to bare blasted metal so he wasn't sure what the outcome would be .... K-Phos seems to help with GunKote so I was thinking it would do the same for Cerakote but now I'm thinking that I have too much time and money wrapped up into this project without a for sure answer to be gambling if it would work or not... I think maybe I will just stick to using the Cerakote without using the K-Phos... If anyone has used this combo before I sure would like to hear about your experience!

April 11, 2015, 11:00 AM	#6
porters Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Posts: 5	Thanks unclenick, Ī Cerakoted my shotgun yesterday going very light coats and you could really see the first coat absorbing into the metal so I can really see the benefit to going over bare metal... I mixed up the amount that Cerakote recommends for a rifled action and had a lot left over! kinda a bummer to toss that material. I have enough left over to coat an old and very rough shape H&R .22 revolver that was given to me and I have some old cutup sections of an old .22 barrel that I will experiment with the K Phos with at that time and I will come back and post some results.... Thanks for taking the time to try and answer my question!

April 12, 2015, 12:07 AM	#8
porters Junior Member Join Date: April 6, 2015 Posts: 5	Tobnpr, K-Phos is a Phosphoric Acid based product and it aids in adhesion and corrosion resistance... On the bottle it claims to take the place of phosphating tanks... I did some tests with Gun Kote with and without the K-Phos I had blasted the parts with 120 grit first and I felt like it gave Gun Kote a better grip on the metal.... I'm not really sure if it adds any mil thickness to your finished product... It goes on really light and seems to absorb into the metal as opposed to on top of it and darkens the metal a bit. Any case if you have any questions I would give them a call they are always very helpful the few times that I called with questions... That being said I was really impressed with the Cerakote that I applied this weekend... The only down part I could say about Cerakote is that once the product is mixed any unused product is tossed unlike the Gun Kote that I can just pour the unused product back into the container... My first impressions is that Cerakote is a little tougher product.