Bird Shot for home Defense? - Page 4

plom · November 21, 2008, 05:49 AM

just my 2 cents, but in my career as LEO, I've seen 3 perps shot with shotguns,the last one was 2 weeks ago, he droped with a single shot at 8 yards.
All of them were shot with birdshots,usually by farmers using their old side by side, all of them were stoped and died at the scene.
Yes, at HOME DEFENSE RANGE, birdshots will stop a guy, and if you are forced to shoot a terminator that don't drop at the first shot, then try headshot, I don't think perps wear bullet proof eyes protection, blind BG is not so dangerous anymore...

oneounceload · November 21, 2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Not necessarily true - in certain states, you are required to exit your home and leave it to the BG to ransack and steal rather than have a deadly force confrontation.
Cute but not true, even in NYC.

It was true in California when I was there a few years ago

nottelybill · November 21, 2008, 01:29 PM

I have shot things other than turkeys with turkey loads. They will take our almost anything at close range.

nemoaz · November 21, 2008, 04:54 PM

Quote:

just my 2 cents, but in my career as LEO, I've seen 3 perps shot with shotguns,the last one was 2 weeks ago, he droped with a single shot at 8 yards.

Yeah, in my law enforcement and prior EMS experience I've seen some that dropped from birshot. I've also seen two with birdshot wounds to the head that walked about afterwards, although one was missing a jaw. Either could have killed someone had that been his intention.

Anecdotally, we've probably all seen or heard a little of everything. Dozens of people DRT (dead right there) from a .22. People who have taken 7 .45's to the chest and abdomen and walked away. 357 to the head that just skipped off the skull due to the angle. And I believe everyone of these stories and have seen photographs and reports of each. Crazy things can happen. That being said, the ballistic tests are pretty consistent on what it takes to be a reasonable manstopper. And a few inches of penetration in bare gelatin (even less with skin and clothes to penetrate) ISN"T it.

Personally, I wouldn't quibble much with largest birshot, #1, BB, or T shot that some of you have suggested. That's probably fairly close to adequate penetration at across the room ranges. I don't know why you'd limit yourself though. These turkey/goose/duck loads are more expensive than buckshot around here. I also like managed recoil/tactical loads (which are buckshot only AFAIK) because my wife has an easier time with it.

If I were forced to use smaller birdshot, I wouldn't trust it for a COM shot. I'd probably aim for the neck or head. I'd also expect to make multiple shots to stop the badguy.

Here's a pretty good evaluation of different loads: http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html I know that many of you have seen this. I'm sure some haven't. Keep in mind that bare gelatin equals more or less bare flesh. I've you've ever tried to puncture the skin or a person or animal, you know that the skin itself is more resistant to penetration than the flesh underneath. Also, most criminals will be wearing clothing. In my neck of the upper midwest, they were a lot of clothing this time of year.

There is a reason why no law enforcement agency carries birdshot. PLOM, what do you carry in your duty shotgun? Hmmmm...

My last post. I don't really have anything to add. Not really sure I added anything from any of the other weekly birdshot vs. buckshot posts.

plom · November 21, 2008, 05:27 PM

duty shotgun is loaded with low recoil 12 pellets buckshot from fiocchi

Scattergun Bob · November 21, 2008, 05:54 PM

No one will know what the next gunfight will look like, or what it will take to win! Clint Smith

Why Limit yourself by ammo selection? There are more than enough limiting factors using scatterguns as fighting weapons.

I load my scattergun with 000 or 00 indoors and have some slugs handy if it goes outside.

Good Luck & Be Safe

Webleymkv · November 21, 2008, 06:19 PM

Depends on the application, I load one of my HD shotties with birdshot. Then again, it's 3.5" Steel BB shot from a 10ga. The 12ga gets loaded with 3" #4 Buckshot.

nate45 · November 21, 2008, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Why Limit yourself by ammo selection?

In the past I loaded my defense shotgun with #2 bird shot, I did it for years, because I thought they would be adequate.

I just figured no one could stand up to one of those, all I was doing though was guessing and not taking into consideration the fact that if I ever did have to shoot someone it probably wouldn't be a normal person.

More than likely the vast majority of people would be stopped by having a shotgun pointed at them, more than likely the vast majority of people that didn't stop would be if hit by a load of #2 bird shot.

What we have to ask ourselves though is what kind of a person breaks into an occupied dwelling? A normal person? A run of the mill thief who thought no one was home? Possibly, but given the modern day rash of home invasions and bizarre crimes why take a chance?

Look, it is actually very rare for anyone to have to point a firearm at someone, its rarer still to have to shoot, but if someone forcibly breaks into your home in the middle of the night while you are at home, do you really want to be armed with birdshot?

Some people have said well its just the first shot or two, then I've got buck or slugs. What if one or two shots are all you get? Why take a chance? If you actually had to go to the extreme lengths of shooting an intruder, what would be the bigger worry? The remote lightening strike odds of an over penetrating pellet hurting an innocent, are of birdshot, given all we now know of its shortcomings, failing to stop a determined possibly drugged or psychotic assailant?

If we were going to choose a new defense round for our favorite .45 or 9 mm would we pick one that tests showed didn't penetrate deep enough to reach the vitals? If we were going to pick a new deer hunting load would we pick one that failed a penetration test? So why would we pick a defense shotgun load that constantly fails penetration tests? Why?

I'll ask again if someone out there has test showing birdshot delivering adequate penetration lets see them.

Lets see some proof that bird shot is suitable for defense besides wishful thinking and stories of people being killed by it. I can tell relate stories of people being killed by pellet guns, but that doesn't make them proper defense tools.

100_0715.JPG

Homerboy · November 21, 2008, 07:34 PM

Birdhshot MIGHT drop a guy dead, but buckshot and slugs WILL, and IF the guy dies 30 seconds after I shoot him with birdshot, how many shots can he fire back at me in that meantime?

If you're trying to save your life and the lives of your wife and children, I would NOT rely on birdshot. Sorry, but my life is worth more then the POSSIBILITY of shooting through a wall. If I lived in an aprtment (and I used to), I would not opt for a shotgun if I was afraid my buckshot would penetrate a wall. I would get a .38 with Glaser ammo and call it a night.

GreyOne · November 21, 2008, 08:56 PM

I have seen a few SG shooting with birdshot. One was a suicide who put it in his mouth and created a V shaped trough- he was DRT. Another was shot in the abdomen at about 3 feet through a screen door. His intestines were a mess and he ended up with a colostomy bag. About a year later I heard he decided to eat a .45 because the pain was too much.
Bottom line, an attacker may be wearing a heavy wool or leather coat, and that will reduce penetration a good bit, especially with bird shot. If you ever face an attacker who is high on drugs, you will find not much effect from your "rack" sound (I am really tired of that foolish meme) and you may find he does not notice the pain and bleeding of a shallow bird shot wound. Use buck shot if you plan to defend your family- go with bird seed er shot if only your own sorry tail is at risk.

Ricky B · November 22, 2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

It was true in California when I was there a few years ago

Sorry, but you were misinformed by someone. It is not true now, it wasn't true then, and it has never been true in CA.

Here is the text of Penal Code §198.5:

Quote:

Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.

None of that looks like a rule that "you are required to exit your home and leave it to the BG to ransack and steal rather than have a deadly force confrontation."

Katrina Guy · November 22, 2008, 06:37 PM

SOMEone's seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" recently huh.

oneounceload · November 22, 2008, 10:18 PM

Rick - thanks for the correction

Ricky B · November 23, 2008, 02:53 AM

You're welcome. And in this vein, here's an item from News of the Weird:

Quote:

In October, the local government council in Worcester, England, ordered Bill Malcolm to take down the 3-foot-high, barbed-wire fence he had installed to deter the thieves who had broken into his storage shed three times in the previous four months. According to the Daily Mail, the council said it feared the government would be sued by a wounded trespasser. [Daily Mail (London), 10-8-08]

alloy · November 23, 2008, 08:45 AM

Pit Bull ammo...gimmick or viable as a choice?

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...pecialtyexotic

Jay1958 · November 23, 2008, 12:42 PM

There are lots of choices for those concerned about over-penetration, without resorting to birdshot.

Low-recoil buckshot has the dual advantage of reduced penetration (due to lower muzzle velocity) and lower recoil to make followup shots easier.

Also, 00 buck is not the only buckshot available. 1 Buck and 4 buck both use smaller pellets and have lower penetration of walls, etc. If you are still worried about it, go with BB loads. Smaller than buckshot, but bigger than "birdshot".

Check out this link for comparative sizes:

http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html

Personally, I use #1 and #4 buckshot for SD purposes, but that's just me. I don't have any children in my home, and my wife and I sleep in the same room.

Ricky B · November 23, 2008, 01:19 PM

Interesting combo, six 00 buck pellets and a 3/4 oz. slug. Being able to fit a 3/4 oz. slug in with six pellets into a 2-3/4" shell makes me wonder if the slug is simply a flat lead disk, which is probably accurate enough at near-contact distances but may veer unpredictably at, say, 30 feet.

All that the site's listing says about velocity of this ammunition is "loaded to the max load." So one question is whether the velocity is adequate, and assuming it is, this thing must kick like the devil.

Before relying on such a load, it would be wise to test it thoroughly, but at its price (plus my guess at what the shipping would cost), it's going to cost in the neighborhood of $4 per round. That makes testing a bit expensive but not out of the question.

I think, however, that a 3" shell with 12 00 pellets will solve whatever problem this product is marketed to solve (and might even kick less).

November 21, 2008, 05:49 AM	#76
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	just my 2 cents, but in my career as LEO, I've seen 3 perps shot with shotguns,the last one was 2 weeks ago, he droped with a single shot at 8 yards. All of them were shot with birdshots,usually by farmers using their old side by side, all of them were stoped and died at the scene. Yes, at HOME DEFENSE RANGE, birdshots will stop a guy, and if you are forced to shoot a terminator that don't drop at the first shot, then try headshot, I don't think perps wear bullet proof eyes protection, blind BG is not so dangerous anymore... __________________ DUX BELLORUM

November 21, 2008, 05:27 PM	#80
plom Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 582	duty shotgun is loaded with low recoil 12 pellets buckshot from fiocchi __________________ DUX BELLORUM

November 21, 2008, 05:54 PM	#81
Scattergun Bob Senior Member Join Date: February 29, 2008 Location: Nine Mile Falls, Washington Posts: 1,186	Why Limit yourself No one will know what the next gunfight will look like, or what it will take to win! Clint Smith Why Limit yourself by ammo selection? There are more than enough limiting factors using scatterguns as fighting weapons. I load my scattergun with 000 or 00 indoors and have some slugs handy if it goes outside. Good Luck & Be Safe __________________ First, with the most, WINS! Regards, Scattergun Bob

November 22, 2008, 06:37 PM	#87
Katrina Guy Junior member Join Date: July 2, 2006 Posts: 315	Bird shot for home defense? SOMEone's seen Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" recently huh.

November 23, 2008, 01:19 PM	#92
Ricky B Senior Member Join Date: November 3, 2002 Posts: 251	Pit Bull ammo Interesting combo, six 00 buck pellets and a 3/4 oz. slug. Being able to fit a 3/4 oz. slug in with six pellets into a 2-3/4" shell makes me wonder if the slug is simply a flat lead disk, which is probably accurate enough at near-contact distances but may veer unpredictably at, say, 30 feet. All that the site's listing says about velocity of this ammunition is "loaded to the max load." So one question is whether the velocity is adequate, and assuming it is, this thing must kick like the devil. Before relying on such a load, it would be wise to test it thoroughly, but at its price (plus my guess at what the shipping would cost), it's going to cost in the neighborhood of $4 per round. That makes testing a bit expensive but not out of the question. I think, however, that a 3" shell with 12 00 pellets will solve whatever problem this product is marketed to solve (and might even kick less). Last edited by Ricky B; November 23, 2008 at 01:34 PM.

November 21, 2008, 01:29 PM	#78
nottelybill Member Join Date: October 9, 2006 Posts: 78	I have shot things other than turkeys with turkey loads. They will take our almost anything at close range.

November 21, 2008, 06:19 PM	#82
Webleymkv Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2005 Location: Indiana Posts: 10,446	Depends on the application, I load one of my HD shotties with birdshot. Then again, it's 3.5" Steel BB shot from a 10ga. The 12ga gets loaded with 3" #4 Buckshot.

November 21, 2008, 07:34 PM	#84
Homerboy Junior member Join Date: June 16, 2004 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 1,320	Birdhshot MIGHT drop a guy dead, but buckshot and slugs WILL, and IF the guy dies 30 seconds after I shoot him with birdshot, how many shots can he fire back at me in that meantime? If you're trying to save your life and the lives of your wife and children, I would NOT rely on birdshot. Sorry, but my life is worth more then the POSSIBILITY of shooting through a wall. If I lived in an aprtment (and I used to), I would not opt for a shotgun if I was afraid my buckshot would penetrate a wall. I would get a .38 with Glaser ammo and call it a night.

November 21, 2008, 08:56 PM	#85
GreyOne Member Join Date: October 17, 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 19	I have seen a few SG shooting with birdshot. One was a suicide who put it in his mouth and created a V shaped trough- he was DRT. Another was shot in the abdomen at about 3 feet through a screen door. His intestines were a mess and he ended up with a colostomy bag. About a year later I heard he decided to eat a .45 because the pain was too much. Bottom line, an attacker may be wearing a heavy wool or leather coat, and that will reduce penetration a good bit, especially with bird shot. If you ever face an attacker who is high on drugs, you will find not much effect from your "rack" sound (I am really tired of that foolish meme) and you may find he does not notice the pain and bleeding of a shallow bird shot wound. Use buck shot if you plan to defend your family- go with bird seed er shot if only your own sorry tail is at risk.

November 22, 2008, 10:18 PM	#88
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Rick - thanks for the correction

November 23, 2008, 12:42 PM	#91
Jay1958 Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2007 Location: North Carolina Posts: 274	There are lots of choices for those concerned about over-penetration, without resorting to birdshot. Low-recoil buckshot has the dual advantage of reduced penetration (due to lower muzzle velocity) and lower recoil to make followup shots easier. Also, 00 buck is not the only buckshot available. 1 Buck and 4 buck both use smaller pellets and have lower penetration of walls, etc. If you are still worried about it, go with BB loads. Smaller than buckshot, but bigger than "birdshot". Check out this link for comparative sizes: http://www.ammobank.com/shotsize.html Personally, I use #1 and #4 buckshot for SD purposes, but that's just me. I don't have any children in my home, and my wife and I sleep in the same room.