|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
May 25, 2009, 03:45 PM | #76 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Going back to BK and your issues with Kleck. If the guy in BK had a knife would stepping up to him with a gun be OK from your perspective?
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
||||
May 25, 2009, 03:51 PM | #77 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
So are you saying that because there is not a large number in the sampling Kleck used that we should infer that fighting back with a gun against a BG who has a gun is more likely to result in injury to us? Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 25, 2009 at 05:09 PM. |
||
May 25, 2009, 04:27 PM | #78 | |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Quote:
|
|
May 25, 2009, 04:30 PM | #79 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 11, 2009
Location: Virginia
Posts: 109
|
Excuse my ignorance, but....
Could someone please explain to me why the BK armed robbery event would be classified as a just a robbery rather than an armed attack waiting to happen on everyone in the place? If someone busts into my home waving a firearm and yelling, I'm going to try to shoot him without even caring that he wants to just rob me. His breaking in and carrying a gun poses an imminent lethal threat to me and my household. Am I looking at this wrong? If so, please help me out. If not, why is it different at a BK? |
May 25, 2009, 04:48 PM | #80 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 4, 2009
Posts: 322
|
If it was me, I'd drop out of vision if possible. If not, I'd slowly snake my hand to my weapon. Regardless of cover, I'd make sure that my hand ended up on the handle of my gun.
If the guy fired a shot at anyone I would take him out. Even if I ended up doing time I would feel confident that I had saved lives. If he did not fire at a person, if he shot the ceiling or the floor and I didn't see death, I would stand back. If he came towards me without firing on anyone and got close and I felt that the next few seconds would dictate my life I would make my decision then and there based on the circumstances. I would never stop a robbery as that is not my job as a citizen. Sometimes I wish that we, as carrying citizens, could make that kind of decision and stop a crime, but I don't beleive that it is either part of our individual right, nor even our constitutional right. As such, I will not hold someone at gun point and will not warn them of my presence. If I draw it will be based on my view that the perp is about to kill me or someone else. If I kill someone while carrying, it will be to protect myself or a fellow human from immediate death. I am willing to end up in prison for life based on that action, as my life or the life i save is worth my incarceration. In my eyes, accepting that kind of fate, that horror of justice, is what you are weighing when you pull the trigger. |
May 25, 2009, 06:18 PM | #81 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
|
Kathy here I am, being very polite!
[QUOTE][/And the participants in this forum are mostly just those type of individuals, and you have to love them.
We all can afford access to the Internet, a Computer, a chair to sit on, and food in the fridge, plus the ability to have electrical power, to run the equipment. The above is us! Now for a quick peek at Joe loser who walks into a small business late at night, with a stolen hand gun, a drug habit, and is not the sharpest bulb in the box, even when he has the $20.00 in his pocket, for his next crack rock, which at this moment in time, he does not! The only control you, the CCW person has, is trigger control, you shoot him quickly, and you shoot him a lot! You can not even have any other thought, he will or will not shoot all in the store, if he wants, and you happen to be one of them.QUOTE] The above is my true belief. The quote in blue. It is called control, and you have not one tiny iota of control when a person appears in your midst, with a pistol, in a business, none whatsoever! Whatever he wants to do (He/She) for instance raise pistol and shoot me! why? I have a hat on? I don't have a hat on. I am Black/White/Indian/Short/Tall? Marksmanship? Let me pick on Pax a moment, she shoots, has a CCW, could you hit a man sized torso, center of mass, at 5 yards, if this person was standing still? No need to answer, reference skill, and skill alone, I know the answer, yes you could. If not one robber had ever shot a person, or group of persons in a robbery, the answer to this person with a gun, in your midst is simple, do nothing. But as there are numerous accounts of these robbers shooting one, or a bunch, or all! Your only control is shoot them first, a lot! And you can quote this study, and that study till you go blue, but reality is plain to see, it is sometimes stated as risk management. The Israelis call it preemptive strikes. My nature falls back in to the Saxon' do unto others, as they would do unto you... BUT DO IT FIRST! |
May 25, 2009, 07:25 PM | #82 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,222
|
Attn: David Armstrong
I have read each and every post on this thread. I'm sure you have as well, judging from all your many responses to the other's here on TFL.
Most people don't agree with you sir and your logic simply does not hold water (when the chips are really down). To me its too complicated. All the "facts" that you keep quoting from your personal sources are just not what I believe as the gospel. This is the bottom line: When and if you are personally ever placed in a situation like this, (and I hope you never are) you do what you think is best and the rest of us will do what we think is best. It is nice to say what you "think" is the best solution (confrontations with the bad guy), but no one in the world knows exactly what might happen during a robbery or personal attack. You just can't read the criminal mind and know if he is going to rob you or shoot you. You do not know what they are planning to do. You should be ready to react. To each his own, is the best response in my opinion and we all need to be prepared. Not only by carrying, but having a plan of action in the back of your mind. Each scenario has its own particular responses (too many variables) and nobody can write a book or suggest "exactly how to respond" in each situation. Remember, none of the victims started any of this, (the perps did) and we are just responding to the threat. In most cases, he who hesitates is lost. We live in a different world now, where values and respect for authority (and human life) are non existent. |
May 25, 2009, 10:38 PM | #83 | |||||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||||
May 25, 2009, 10:53 PM | #84 | ||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
1994 NSPOF Survey Respondents N= 2658 Victims N= 141 Gun Use by Perpetrator N= 9 Quote:
|
||
May 25, 2009, 10:57 PM | #85 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 25, 2009 at 11:05 PM. |
||||
May 25, 2009, 10:58 PM | #86 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
|
|
May 25, 2009, 11:00 PM | #87 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
|
|
May 25, 2009, 11:04 PM | #88 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Experts say all kinds of things until someone comes along and shows something else. Think football and the T formation. I think pax said it well when she talked about expert's audience being those who are not armed. No rocket science there to see that unarmed good guy fighting wiht armed BG is not too smart. But that dynamic is beginning to change and I think Kleck's research may be showing that.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
May 25, 2009, 11:08 PM | #89 | |||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
May 25, 2009, 11:16 PM | #90 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
PS I am not sure that Kleck used the 1994 NSPOF Survey. I think he used his own?
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 25, 2009 at 11:20 PM. Reason: more info about NSPOF |
|
May 25, 2009, 11:27 PM | #91 | ||||||||||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by David Armstrong; May 25, 2009 at 11:37 PM. |
||||||||||
May 25, 2009, 11:40 PM | #92 | |
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
|
|
May 26, 2009, 08:36 AM | #93 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,222
|
Again, David A:
You keep saying that "most" armed robberies are not violent????
Are you living on another planet? I can assure you that any victim (who has actually experienced an armed robbery) can attest that it IS a violent crime committed against them. Not only physically (in some cases) but for sure mentally, for all of them. It alters the way people act and where they go from then on. It stays in the back of your mind and haunts you for a very long time to come. NOTE: The reason I know this, is that I was unfortunate to be a victim of an armed robbery (by knife to my throat) 8 years ago in a hotel parking garage in Macon, GA. Trust me sir, it is something I guarantee that you never want to experience. It is VIOLENT in all respects. Although I only suffered a small cut on my neck (it still bled a lot), I was very lucky as it could have been much worse. So the bottom line is (for me) always be prepared and alert. I never trust any strangers who approach me anymore. That is sad, but that is the way it has to be nowadays. Why? Because you never know what their "real" intentions are. They could possibly be violent and if it involes a robbery to your person, IT IS VIOLENT. |
May 26, 2009, 09:53 AM | #94 | |||
Junior member
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: SW Louisiana
Posts: 2,289
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
May 26, 2009, 10:00 AM | #95 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 22, 2007
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,222
|
Hello David A: I give up, you win!
Anyone who compares the violence of an armed robbery to a high school football game is just someone (that none of us can ever reach)....
Congrats, you win brother. I give up trying to make my points..... |
May 26, 2009, 10:14 AM | #96 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It seems David that due to your dancing around on the issue you don't have a creditable answer to Kleck's position but that's OK, you are not alone as the antigunners are having problems with it too.
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. Last edited by Tennessee Gentleman; May 26, 2009 at 10:29 AM. Reason: spelling |
||||||
May 26, 2009, 10:15 AM | #97 |
Staff In Memoriam
Join Date: October 31, 2007
Location: Western Florida panhandle
Posts: 11,069
|
Just like the phrase I use when someone postures in front of me, this thread seems to have followed "I am a merry go round, jump on when yer ready but jump off before you puke":barf: Seems the OP and topic has been made and now is just the usual players in the typical T&T circle of doom...
My final word on the point is I am glad a citizen legally used his weapon and skill to take out a gun toting violent robber (presence of gun to rob is violent IMHO) hope he fully recovers from wounds suffered by the BG's bullets... Brent |
May 26, 2009, 10:21 AM | #98 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 31, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 1,775
|
Quote:
__________________
"God and the Soldier we adore, in time of trouble but not before. When the danger's past and the wrong been righted, God is forgotten and the Soldier slighted." Anonymous Soldier. |
|
May 26, 2009, 10:24 AM | #99 |
Junior member
Join Date: April 8, 2007
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,769
|
Lets not forget that David admits that he choses to remain armed despite the evidence he has presented throughout this thread. That says more to me than what has been written so far.
|
May 26, 2009, 10:31 AM | #100 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 16, 2000
Location: In a state of flux
Posts: 7,520
|
Four pages and now we're going in circles.
Closing this before anyone forgets my earlier warning... Thanks for the thought-provoking discussion, folks. pax |
|
|