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January 17, 2013, 03:06 PM | #1 |
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Ok 1911 guru's got a parts question/problem
Actually 2 questions. Does the firing pin stop have a loose/snug/or very tight fit when inserting into the slide during assembly? On my son's Taurus, (ya I know dont waste your breath, couldnt see giving him a higher end 1911 for the first one)....Anyway, the firing pin stop has dimples on both sides (front and rear). Its like they were left over from manufacturing??? The fit is way to tight in my opinion, but maybe thats the way its supposed to be??? It took small punch and hammer for removal and installing. I did take some emery cloth to smooth down the fit and that seemed to fit. Question two... due to this tight fit, would it cause any hang ups with the firing pin plunger preventing the firing pin from traveling the full length travel during firing? I recently had about 2-3 rounds of a mag not fire. The primer had very light primer strikes/marks. When I reloaded the sames rounds, or recock and fire, the rounds fired fine. Reloads haver never failed in other guns (45acp), and are measured correctly on COL, crimp, not long or short when checked in barrel chamber itself, etc. I just wonder if any of that rough fit would keep the firing pin from traveling the full length. Are other firing pin stops loose or snug??? Any thoughts?
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January 17, 2013, 06:44 PM | #2 |
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Guru 1911ananda says...
The firing pin stop should fit snug but not so tight that you need tools to remove it,once it is in place it does not interfere with firing pin travel regardless of fit,if you are having trouble inserting or removing chances are it is out of specs,replace it if you are not comfortable fine grinding parts. |
January 17, 2013, 06:50 PM | #3 |
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I have seen a firing pin increase in diameter,from mushrooming due to dry firing,to the point it became tight in the firing pin stop.Temp fix,spin it in a drill press and dress it with a file or stone,but then order a good firing pin.
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January 17, 2013, 07:23 PM | #4 |
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You should be able to easily determine if the problem is the firing pin binding in the firing pin stop, or perhaps, an issue with the Series 80 system. Pull the trigger all the way to the rear and hold it there, then use a punch to depress the firing pin. If the pin drags at all, then you need to determine what's dragging, and where.
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January 17, 2013, 07:44 PM | #5 |
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As posted about, the firing pin stop should fit tight, but should not require Herculean effort or power tools to remove. I like a very slight press fit, just enough to prevent the extractor from rotating in its bore (known as "clocking"). But I've seen 1911 in which the stop was so loose that, if inserted with no firing pin, would just fall out ... and the pistols functioned.
A Taurus will also have a Series 80 style firing pin safety, and if that's not properly set up the safety can interfere with the firing pin, resulting in light strikes. |
January 17, 2013, 07:53 PM | #6 |
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Not to be overly minute here,but in order to depress the trigger while holding the hammer you have to get a good grip on the pistol,then you want
the man to push a punch into the firing pin and test the action thereof. Do yo do this yourself? Field strip the pistol and visually inspect all the moving parts for damage here is when the firing pin travel can be checked for proper function. |
January 17, 2013, 10:08 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
One way around the need for a third hand would be to simply drop the mainspring housing down far enough to take spring pressure off the hammer, leaving the slide in place on the pistol. |
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January 17, 2013, 10:45 PM | #8 |
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Here's the thing:during a different discussion regarding the series 80 block
a well regarded authority on the 1911 suggested that visually inspecting the plunger for damage was the way to know whether all parts involved were functioning correctly in other words if the plunger shows no sign of damage it is not interfering with the firing pin during normal operation. This is a sensible way to check the mechanism without going through contorsions or dropping the main spring housing,the fact that reloaded ammo was used introduced yet another factor to be considered but those "dimples" certainly don't belong in the firing pin stop. |
January 18, 2013, 12:36 AM | #9 |
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Performing the test I described requires no disassembly, and no contortions. I can hold the trigger and hammer with one hand, and depress the firing pin with the other. The test takes ten seconds, beginning to end.
Where are the dimples on the FPS? Sometimes, people will apply a punch near the edges, kicking-up burrs that tighten the fit in the slide. It's not something I'd expent to see on an unmodified, stock gun. |
January 18, 2013, 05:48 AM | #10 |
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Leverage
Another way to check it is to take the pretravel out of the trigger and measure the distance from the top of the lever to the top of the frame. .060 inch is what you want. Then, pull the trigger full rearward and measure again. .090-.100 inch is good.
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January 18, 2013, 12:19 PM | #11 |
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Thanks for the replies. I did use RickB's tip and had interference with the firing pin travel, However, I was doing this with the barrel pointed down on the table. Once I put the gun parallel to the ground it had clear travel. I did remember that the last disassembly I noticed the firing pin plunger spring cocked a little bit, possibly from my last install. And yes I wouldn't expect the firing pin stop to have dimples and the opposite bumps. It's like someone used a flat ended punch for one side and the other side has what would be the opposite with round bumps. When I get a chance I will take a pic that would help explain. Unless someone with a Taurus beats me to it.
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January 18, 2013, 02:49 PM | #12 | |
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re:
Quote:
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January 18, 2013, 06:27 PM | #13 |
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Ya that through me as we'll. after I took a pic of the firing pin stop and reassembled, I checked it barrel pointed down and it worked fine. Wonder if it had anything to do with a cocked/canted firing pin plunger???
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January 18, 2013, 07:41 PM | #14 | |
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re:
Quote:
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January 18, 2013, 08:11 PM | #15 |
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Back a bit to the firing pin stop. Many folks have heard of the firing pin stop dropping down and hanging up the gun, hence the concern to make it a tight fit. There is no harm in doing this, by peening it but some understanding as to how the firing pin stop could drop down might help.
When the hammer hits the firing pin, the firing pin moves forward far enough to strike the primer. But it cannot normally move far enough to clear the firing pin stop and the slide movement to the rear cocks the hammer in the normal manner, just like in the pictures. But, with hot ammunition, and some gun characteristics like an extended ejector, the fired case is kicked away from the breech face before the firing pin loses inertia, so it continues to move forward. That pulls the rear of the firing pin out of the firing pin stop. Now in the pictures, it looks like the slide moves gently back and pushes the hammer so the hammer stays in contact with the FP stop and it can't move down. But that is not what happens with hot loads. The slide moves back so fast and hard that it strikes the hammer, driving it back and down out of contact with the slide. So, with everything just right (or wrong) the firing pin is clear of the slide stop and so is the hammer. Meantime, the gun has begun to recoil upward. The firing pin stop, having nothing to hold it in place, tries to remain where it is as the gun moves upward. The firing pin stop thus moves down (in relation to the gun and slide) and ends up between the hammer and the frame, jamming the gun. It is a neat case of timing, and won't happen except with hot loads. It won't happen with standard GI loads. But it happens often enough that "gurus" advise shooters to stake, peen or otherwise make sure that the firing pin stop won't move down and hang up the gun. Jim |
January 19, 2013, 04:30 AM | #16 |
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Jim's assessment is pretty much spot on. I've seen it happen with GI ball and equivalent handloads, and the common thread almost always includes a weak or short firing pin spring.
I've staked the edges of firing pin stops as an expedient measure, but prefer a fitted stop. No need to make it so tight that it requires a punch and hammer to move it, though. Just enough to keep it from falling from gravity is all that's needed, and using a punch or the tip of the hammer strut to pull it down is acceptable. The side benefit of using a fitted stop is that it makes for more consistent ejection by keeping the extractor aligned.
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January 19, 2013, 02:50 PM | #17 |
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Those are some interesting notes. I won't worry about the remaining stake marks and dimples as the firing pin stop is now a snug fit. Not as tight as it was. My reloads are not hot, just in the middle mild. I am going to shoot it tomorrow with the same loads and well see what happens. And hopefully get that pic downloaded. If I remember how??? Does downloading pics still take photobucket type site??? It's been a while
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January 20, 2013, 04:15 PM | #18 |
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firing pin stop
Please indulge my skepticism,the firing pin strikes the primer and it's immediately
pushed back and cannot lose inertia since the slide is going back as well.In addition to that the primer depression is about +-1/32 so it doesn't seem possible that the firing pin can be unsecured to the slide long enough to cause that failure.A mechanical defect eg. broken or tampered with spring would of course but even a +P is too far fetched.I go to the basics when in doubt and my Rand's firing pin stop is loose and I suspect that all those pistols soldiers carried to war had the same fit,so the way I see it this is an issue that sells a $20 tool to free a part that is not designed to be pried lose. |
January 20, 2013, 04:17 PM | #19 |
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I had an Auto Ordnance that would drop down and hang everything up. I replaced the spring and the stop and cured it.
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January 20, 2013, 04:23 PM | #20 |
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So glad it was a faulty spring and not Browning's fault.
Did you buy the stop with a set screw? I see that one for sale too. These solutions looking for an issue amuse me. |
January 20, 2013, 06:05 PM | #21 | |
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re:
Hawg, it's almost always a weak spring.
Had a Colt Enhanced Combat Commander XSE that belonged to a neighbor that did it twice on its maiden voyage. It would drop and hang on the hammer. Series 80 firing pin springs are quite a bit shorter than standard springs. I installed a standard spring and the problem disappeared. Quote:
No need to buy a 20-dollar tool, even if it does need prying. The original hammer strut works just fine for that. Then, of course...with an EGW stop...there's the option of cutting a small radius on the bottom corner to add a little delay to the slide and bleed off a bit of it's rearward momentum...as per the original design. In the 80s, when the old 5/64th radius stops got scarce, I made my own. When George Smith started offering them with dead square bottoms a decade later, I thought I'd won the lottery and started experimenting with an even smaller radius...down to .050 at one point, and eventually settled on about a 16th. Some people just leave'em square and go.
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If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 20, 2013 at 06:24 PM. |
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January 20, 2013, 06:13 PM | #22 |
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Stop Radius
Here ya go, polyphemus. The one on the far left is the standard since January 1918. The one in the center is one of mine, cut to roughly .070 radius...just slightly smaller than Browning's.
I found the one on the far right in a late production pre-Series 80 Combat Commander. It's got a slightly smaller radius than the now-standard 7/32nds. Not sure if that was a fluke, or if Colt was experimenting. Study these and see if it comes to ya how that radius would make a difference in the slide's delay and momentum. Don't let that single eye mislead ya, now.
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If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 20, 2013 at 06:21 PM. |
January 21, 2013, 11:45 AM | #23 |
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firing pin stop
Thank you for the pic.As I understand the prototypes had flat bottom stops and
the militari specified the change to a radiused leading edge.I have to say that they were right on this one,the prints available to me call for an offset .220" R leaving a 1/32 +/- flat I could not say how a different radius would make a difference .220" is probably tried and true.How the rounded edge affects momentum is logical,more slide leverage thru longer contact,clear mechanical advantage and smoother action compressing the main spring.I can;t make out the edges very well but I get the idea don't need the loupe for this one. |
January 21, 2013, 02:30 PM | #24 | |||
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re:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And there isn't a smooth action in compressing the mainspring, regardless of the firing pin stop radius. Its effect is brief, but telling. The hammer doesn't remain in contact with the slide, but is rather slammed backward...bounces off the grip safety tang...and falls back to the slide, striking it roughly at the junction of the stop and the center rail, assuming that the mainspring is to spec and in good shape. The photo below illustrates the "Strike Zones" of the hammer on the grip safety and the stop/rail junction. The damage is most often seen on soft pre-1946 production slides, but it's occasionally seen on newer, hardened slides with enough mileage. Another plus with an oversized fitted stop is that you can leave it just a few thousandths below flush with the center rail, and avoid the peening on the rail. The stop catches all the hell. In the photo, the peening was done before the oversized/square stop was installed.
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If your front porch collapses and kills more than three dogs...You just might be a redneck Last edited by 1911Tuner; January 21, 2013 at 02:35 PM. |
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January 21, 2013, 02:43 PM | #25 |
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Peening
Here's the same slide from another angle.
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