High Cap Magazines.....who needs them?

kraigwy · May 3, 2013, 10:24 AM

I found this video on the CMP Forums and thought it would be worth sharing.

I know the powers to be don't care, as this doesn't fit their agenda but this is work watching and passing around.

Makes me want to have a semi setting around to supplement my 642 in my pocket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F1nP...layer_embedded

SPEMack618 · May 3, 2013, 10:35 AM

That was more than a little creepy. The oldest daughter looked a lot like my sister.

In addition to making a case for hi-cap mags, I think it shows what a horrendously poor man stopper any sort of pistol round is.

allaroundhunter · May 3, 2013, 10:42 AM

But you know.... At least the bad guy also would have had to reload after 10 rounds....

The thing is, none of my "anti gun" friends would learn anything from this video. It would be nice if the point could come across to those who oppose "high capacity" magazines, and I'm sure it can for some, I just don't know how many.

Tucker 1371 · May 3, 2013, 10:50 AM

Cover, reload. No 10+ mag can make up for no training and poor reflexes. Shoot, move, cover, reload. Train for it and get your OODA loop used to moving at Mach Jesus. Don't stand there like a deer in headlights listening to your firing pin hit air over and over.

That said I agree with the spirit of the clip, it makes no sense that LE and Military, who almost always have backup, should be the only ones who have "high capacity" magazines where as Joe Citizen defending his family and home most likely on his own only gets 10 rounds.

lcpiper · May 3, 2013, 10:59 AM

There is a segment of the population that are non-gun people, not necessarily anti-gun, but non-gun.

Many of these people have never owned or had a gun around and they see no need for one. Life has not impressed upon them the need and for those who are obviously unprepared, this is for them, a blessing they do not fully appreciate.

This being said, many of these people only see the bad side of guns. To their limited experience the bad that comes with guns far out-ways the good. Even if the reality of becoming a victim intrudes on their lives they are more likely to interpret the event as evil guns and not evil people.

Make a high cap video or argument that reaches these people and you might have a case.

Pahoo · May 3, 2013, 11:10 AM

Quote:

High Cap Magazines.....who needs them?

Sadly, there are politicians and gun owners that feel this way and want to decide for all of us, what we really need. Then they state, that this is what we want. How do you feel about what politicians feel is good for us?

Be Safe !!!

ChaseReynolds · May 3, 2013, 11:15 AM

That is some good stuff, I am glad that I clicked on this thread. I shared it on my Facebook wall so that way any friends that are liberal (not sure that I have very many) will understand the importance of the 2A and that hunting rifles are not the focus.

Nathan · May 3, 2013, 11:42 AM

Thank goodness I carry a reload for my 1911!

KyJim · May 3, 2013, 08:57 PM

Makes me want to reconsider that Model 65 as my bedside gun.

Dalek · May 3, 2013, 09:08 PM

I need my "hi cap" magazines for exactly the same reasons that, once upon a time, a very nice black lady needed to ride at the front of the bus.

Rights. More is always better.

Merad · May 4, 2013, 06:57 PM

Can't say that I'm really very fond of the video. It seems like it's supposed to be convincing non-gun or on-the-fence type people, yet the content is blatantly made by pro-gun people to appeal to other pro-gun people.

1. It reinforces the image of RKBA advocates as paranoid nuts who are expecting to get in an OK Corral type gunfight at any moment by using an extremely improbably scenario. 2 druggies randomly decide to start kicking down doors in an upper-middle class neighborhood right after dinner while the whole family is gathered around the TV? I'm not sure you could get much more cliched if you tried.

2. The video seems to totally fail to make its point. The first thing I noticed was how the dad seems to be almost totally incompetent with his gun. I actually wondered for a moment if this was actually supposed to be an anti-gun video trying to show that gun owners are delusional to think they can protect themselves. I assume the point was supposed to be that 10 rounds isn't enough to stopped drugged up guys... but joe average with no exposure to guns other than movie hand cannons is unlikely to get that point.

3. It's making the wrong point entirely. I don't own hi-cap mags because I'm afraid of druggies kicking down my door. That's probably the least of my concerns. I own them because they're a convenience and they don't harm anyone or anything. Well, except possibly the hard drives, computers and other devices that we destroy at the range.

KyJim · May 4, 2013, 09:52 PM

Merad -

Maybe it's not so far fetched as you think. My family was the victim of a home invasion of sorts. We lived in a middle class neighborhood (different one now). I'm a professional. On one side lived a retired university professor and, on the other, the widow of a retired engineer. My two teenage daughters were at home sleeping in (summer vacation) when a drug seeker picked our house to break into (probably because the back yard afforded him privacy to break a window and crawl through it). Happy ending -- bad guy caught with no harm to family.

"Totally incompetent" -- I don't think so. Other than the fact he closed his eyes when he shot, he appeared to do okay in a stressful situation. He appeared to mostly hit his targets. The point is that sometimes a motivated person is not instantly stopped with even multiple hits. A lot of folks out there think getting shot is how Hollywood portrays it -- a person shot flies back about five feet and is immediately incapacitated. This video helps dispel that myth.

Finally, just because you don't own hi-cap mags to defend against possible multiple attackers doesn't mean another person is wrong in doing so.

mete · May 4, 2013, 10:21 PM

Do some research on actual police shoot outs and you'll find in some police cases their hit probability was as low as 10% !!! in studies I've seen .

Merad · May 5, 2013, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Maybe it's not so far fetched as you think. My family was the victim of a home invasion of sorts. We lived in a middle class neighborhood (different one now). I'm a professional. On one side lived a retired university professor and, on the other, the widow of a retired engineer. My two teenage daughters were at home sleeping in (summer vacation) when a drug seeker picked our house to break into (probably because the back yard afforded him privacy to break a window and crawl through it). Happy ending -- bad guy caught with no harm to family.

There's a night and day difference between breaking in the back window of a house that appears unoccupied during the middle of the day, and kicking in the font door of an obviously occupied house at dinner time.

Quote:

Finally, just because you don't own hi-cap mags to defend against possible multiple attackers doesn't mean another person is wrong in doing so.

My point is two-fold:

-The "I need hi-cap mags for defense" is not an effective argument to use with non-gun people.
-If the only argument in favor of hi-cap mags is "I need them for defense" then that's not only a weak argument but a pretty poor reflection on gun owners.

Quote:

Do some research on actual police shoot outs and you'll find in some police cases their hit probability was as low as 10% !!! in studies I've seen .

Not to go off the rails with politics but that might have something to do with police throughout the US becoming overly militarized and extremely trigger happy. Eg, the old ladies who had 100+ rounds unloaded on their pickup truck during the Dorner manhunt.

In civilian self defense shootings, the average number of shots fired is a solid 2.

Plumbnut · May 5, 2013, 09:57 AM

I have high capacity mags by the buckets because I do not want to spend my valuable time at the range loading magazines and a 10 round mag is the same price as a 15-17 round mag.

To me the range means a formal gun range or a friends field.

Reloading my guns take time so I try to do it as little as possible.

Speaking of the range.....I think today would be a great day to go.

Romeo 33 Delta · May 5, 2013, 12:56 PM

"No one ever complained about having carried too much ammo ... after a firefight!"

I "need" high capacity magazines for the same reason I "need" things like Life Insurance, Fire Extinguishers, Home and Auto First Aid Kits, AAA, Health Insurance.

Just to be fair ... I won't tell you what and how much you "need" ... just please extend that courtesy to me as well.

SPEMack618 · May 5, 2013, 12:57 PM

The Boy Scouts got it righte...."Be Prepared."

That applies to all things in life.

Crazy88Fingers · May 5, 2013, 01:11 PM

The odds of any of us ever needing a gun for self-defense are probably one in a million. But every day someone gets to be that unlucky one, and I imagine that's why some of us choose to own firearms. While I hope I never need a single bullet to protect myself or my home, should the need arise I'd like to have as many more behind it as possible.

And here's a story not too dissimilar from the one in the video...

Father Shoots One of Multiple Home Invaders After Power Was Cut

I didn't have to look very long to find it.

Dalek · May 5, 2013, 04:05 PM

It truly bothers me, this recent push for anyone to have to justify their Rights or, the exercise there of. It is as creeping and perfidious a matter as any free society, based on liberty, can possibly face.

Consider the recent blather about a "New Bill of Rights", to include healthcare, housing and vacation time among other things. Absurd on the face of it and truly comical if we merely scratch the surface. When such rubbish is posed to me, I always ask, "If housing is a right, then how many sq. ft does every person have a right to?" "If healthcare is a right, does that mean if I lose a leg, I get a Lt. Dan magic leg or a peg leg?"

Attempting to argue "Rights" in the context of "need" is disastrous in both a political and philosophical context. After all, explain to me without getting angry, why a black citizen "needs" to drink from the same water fountain as some daft white. After all, the water is precisely the same, is it not?

We can, I feel confident, point to matters of not only dignity and the inherent dignity of being a citizen as opposed to a subject. Either we are equal in value within our society to those we elect to represent us or, we are less than those we choose to have rule over us.

When posed with the question "Who, besides L.E. or military types, 'needs' and 'assault weapon'", I counter with a smile, "Why does Officer Friendly need an such things? Are we at war with the citizens of the U.S.?" If the purpose of hi cap mags and "assault weapons" is nothing more than to "kill the most people in short order" then why, I ask, do we arm our "Peace Officers" with such devices? Is it now their duty to kill as many of us as they are able as quickly as they can?

It comes down to a very simple set of philosophical and political ideals. Citizens within a free society, having their inherent rights as humans, have no need to justify those rights to anyone. Govt. does not "grant" Rights, it recognizes them as a matter of its Social Contract with the governed to continue as a moral authority within that society.

As soon as we take the inherently defensive position of having to prove our "need" to enjoy any given Right, we hand to our opponents the high ground.

Crazy88Fingers · May 5, 2013, 08:11 PM

Quote:

If the purpose of hi cap mags and "assault weapons" is nothing more than to "kill the most people in short order" then why, I ask, do we arm our "Peace Officers" with such devices? Is it now their duty to kill as many of us as they are able as quickly as they can?

Thank you!

KyJim · May 5, 2013, 10:58 PM

Quote:

-The "I need hi-cap mags for defense" is not an effective argument to use with non-gun people.

Why not? All you have to do is explain about the possible need for multiple hits on multiple targets. That may not be the typical defense situation but it happens. Police started using them because bad guys started using them. Shouldn't a homeowner also have the right to have an adequate number of rounds at his or her disposal?

Quote:

-If the only argument in favor of hi-cap mags is "I need them for defense" then that's not only a weak argument but a pretty poor reflection on gun owners.

Who said it was the only argument? It is an argument and, IMO, a darned good one.

Skans · May 6, 2013, 08:37 AM

Boy, that video is hokey!!! First of all, the shooter has a horrible flinching problem - shuts his eyes every time he pulls the trigger.

Second, how many of you actually looked at the brass? It's .22 brass! Whoever made this video - please we really do notice little things like that.

SPEMack618 · May 6, 2013, 09:08 AM

In the video's defense, the first time I ever leveled my M-4 at some one and squeezed the trigger, I flinched something fierce.

A gun does not make one a steely eyed merchant of death.

deepcreek · May 6, 2013, 09:24 AM

I didn't think it was too bad. The lighting and film quality was good.

The theme was a little far fetched IMO. I mean it could... happen but seems a little to out there in general.

I think it would be more realistic if the bad guys all barged through one door, a few bullets hit and few bullets got wasted on the wall is a haphazard struggle then.. Empty.

Plumbnut · May 6, 2013, 09:29 AM

When my doorbell or I get a knock on the door without a call first the first thing I reach for is my pistol. IMO the only way to be prepared is to assume the worst. I also have a system that when my doorbell gets pushed and the TV is on it switchs over to the security camera on the front porch.

Home invasions got bad at one time around my parts. Alarm systems dont keep people out but it alerts the neighbors that somthings wrong and limits the time people can "hangout" in te house if they do gain entry.

May 3, 2013, 10:24 AM	#1
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	High Cap Magazines.....who needs them? I found this video on the CMP Forums and thought it would be worth sharing. I know the powers to be don't care, as this doesn't fit their agenda but this is work watching and passing around. Makes me want to have a semi setting around to supplement my 642 in my pocket. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F1nP...layer_embedded __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

May 3, 2013, 10:35 AM	#2
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	That was more than a little creepy. The oldest daughter looked a lot like my sister. In addition to making a case for hi-cap mags, I think it shows what a horrendously poor man stopper any sort of pistol round is. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

May 3, 2013, 10:42 AM	#3
allaroundhunter Senior Member Join Date: May 6, 2012 Location: Southeast Texas Posts: 1,670	Re: High Cap Magazines.....who needs them? But you know.... At least the bad guy also would have had to reload after 10 rounds.... The thing is, none of my "anti gun" friends would learn anything from this video. It would be nice if the point could come across to those who oppose "high capacity" magazines, and I'm sure it can for some, I just don't know how many.

May 3, 2013, 10:50 AM	#4
Tucker 1371 Senior Member Join Date: December 29, 2008 Location: East TN Posts: 2,649	Cover, reload. No 10+ mag can make up for no training and poor reflexes. Shoot, move, cover, reload. Train for it and get your OODA loop used to moving at Mach Jesus. Don't stand there like a deer in headlights listening to your firing pin hit air over and over. That said I agree with the spirit of the clip, it makes no sense that LE and Military, who almost always have backup, should be the only ones who have "high capacity" magazines where as Joe Citizen defending his family and home most likely on his own only gets 10 rounds. __________________ Sgt. of Marines, 5th Award Expert Rifle, 237/250 Expert Pistol, 382/400. D Co, 4th CEB, Engineers UP!! If you start a thread, be active in it. Don't leave us hanging. OEF 2011 Sangin, Afg. Molon Labe

May 3, 2013, 10:59 AM	#5
lcpiper Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Posts: 1,405	There is a segment of the population that are non-gun people, not necessarily anti-gun, but non-gun. Many of these people have never owned or had a gun around and they see no need for one. Life has not impressed upon them the need and for those who are obviously unprepared, this is for them, a blessing they do not fully appreciate. This being said, many of these people only see the bad side of guns. To their limited experience the bad that comes with guns far out-ways the good. Even if the reality of becoming a victim intrudes on their lives they are more likely to interpret the event as evil guns and not evil people. Make a high cap video or argument that reaches these people and you might have a case. __________________ Colt M1911, AR-15 \| S&W Model 19, Model 27\| SIG P238 \| Berreta 85B Cheetah \| Ruger Blackhawk .357MAG, Bearcat "Shopkeeper" .22LR\| Remington Marine Magnum SP 12GA., Model 700 SPS .223

May 3, 2013, 11:15 AM	#7
ChaseReynolds Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2012 Location: Fort Riley, Kansas Posts: 186	That is some good stuff, I am glad that I clicked on this thread. I shared it on my Facebook wall so that way any friends that are liberal (not sure that I have very many) will understand the importance of the 2A and that hunting rifles are not the focus.

May 3, 2013, 11:42 AM	#8
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,331	Thank goodness I carry a reload for my 1911!

May 3, 2013, 08:57 PM	#9
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Makes me want to reconsider that Model 65 as my bedside gun.

May 3, 2013, 09:08 PM	#10
Dalek Member Join Date: April 10, 2013 Posts: 64	I need my "hi cap" magazines for exactly the same reasons that, once upon a time, a very nice black lady needed to ride at the front of the bus. Rights. More is always better.

May 4, 2013, 06:57 PM	#11
Merad Senior Member Join Date: October 5, 2011 Posts: 350	Can't say that I'm really very fond of the video. It seems like it's supposed to be convincing non-gun or on-the-fence type people, yet the content is blatantly made by pro-gun people to appeal to other pro-gun people. 1. It reinforces the image of RKBA advocates as paranoid nuts who are expecting to get in an OK Corral type gunfight at any moment by using an extremely improbably scenario. 2 druggies randomly decide to start kicking down doors in an upper-middle class neighborhood right after dinner while the whole family is gathered around the TV? I'm not sure you could get much more cliched if you tried. 2. The video seems to totally fail to make its point. The first thing I noticed was how the dad seems to be almost totally incompetent with his gun. I actually wondered for a moment if this was actually supposed to be an anti-gun video trying to show that gun owners are delusional to think they can protect themselves. I assume the point was supposed to be that 10 rounds isn't enough to stopped drugged up guys... but joe average with no exposure to guns other than movie hand cannons is unlikely to get that point. 3. It's making the wrong point entirely. I don't own hi-cap mags because I'm afraid of druggies kicking down my door. That's probably the least of my concerns. I own them because they're a convenience and they don't harm anyone or anything. Well, except possibly the hard drives, computers and other devices that we destroy at the range. Last edited by Merad; May 4, 2013 at 08:33 PM.

May 4, 2013, 09:52 PM	#12
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	Merad - Maybe it's not so far fetched as you think. My family was the victim of a home invasion of sorts. We lived in a middle class neighborhood (different one now). I'm a professional. On one side lived a retired university professor and, on the other, the widow of a retired engineer. My two teenage daughters were at home sleeping in (summer vacation) when a drug seeker picked our house to break into (probably because the back yard afforded him privacy to break a window and crawl through it). Happy ending -- bad guy caught with no harm to family. "Totally incompetent" -- I don't think so. Other than the fact he closed his eyes when he shot, he appeared to do okay in a stressful situation. He appeared to mostly hit his targets. The point is that sometimes a motivated person is not instantly stopped with even multiple hits. A lot of folks out there think getting shot is how Hollywood portrays it -- a person shot flies back about five feet and is immediately incapacitated. This video helps dispel that myth. Finally, just because you don't own hi-cap mags to defend against possible multiple attackers doesn't mean another person is wrong in doing so.

May 4, 2013, 10:21 PM	#13
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Do some research on actual police shoot outs and you'll find in some police cases their hit probability was as low as 10% !!! in studies I've seen . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

May 5, 2013, 09:57 AM	#15
Plumbnut Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 219	I have high capacity mags by the buckets because I do not want to spend my valuable time at the range loading magazines and a 10 round mag is the same price as a 15-17 round mag. To me the range means a formal gun range or a friends field. Reloading my guns take time so I try to do it as little as possible. Speaking of the range.....I think today would be a great day to go.

May 5, 2013, 12:56 PM	#16
Romeo 33 Delta Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2009 Posts: 315	"No one ever complained about having carried too much ammo ... after a firefight!" I "need" high capacity magazines for the same reason I "need" things like Life Insurance, Fire Extinguishers, Home and Auto First Aid Kits, AAA, Health Insurance. Just to be fair ... I won't tell you what and how much you "need" ... just please extend that courtesy to me as well.

May 5, 2013, 12:57 PM	#17
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	The Boy Scouts got it righte...."Be Prepared." That applies to all things in life. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

May 5, 2013, 01:11 PM	#18
Crazy88Fingers Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2010 Location: WesTex Posts: 958	The odds of any of us ever needing a gun for self-defense are probably one in a million. But every day someone gets to be that unlucky one, and I imagine that's why some of us choose to own firearms. While I hope I never need a single bullet to protect myself or my home, should the need arise I'd like to have as many more behind it as possible. And here's a story not too dissimilar from the one in the video... Father Shoots One of Multiple Home Invaders After Power Was Cut I didn't have to look very long to find it. __________________ "And I'm tellin' you son, well it ain't no fun, staring straight down a .44" -Lynyrd Skynyrd

May 5, 2013, 04:05 PM	#19
Dalek Member Join Date: April 10, 2013 Posts: 64	It truly bothers me, this recent push for anyone to have to justify their Rights or, the exercise there of. It is as creeping and perfidious a matter as any free society, based on liberty, can possibly face. Consider the recent blather about a "New Bill of Rights", to include healthcare, housing and vacation time among other things. Absurd on the face of it and truly comical if we merely scratch the surface. When such rubbish is posed to me, I always ask, "If housing is a right, then how many sq. ft does every person have a right to?" "If healthcare is a right, does that mean if I lose a leg, I get a Lt. Dan magic leg or a peg leg?" Attempting to argue "Rights" in the context of "need" is disastrous in both a political and philosophical context. After all, explain to me without getting angry, why a black citizen "needs" to drink from the same water fountain as some daft white. After all, the water is precisely the same, is it not? We can, I feel confident, point to matters of not only dignity and the inherent dignity of being a citizen as opposed to a subject. Either we are equal in value within our society to those we elect to represent us or, we are less than those we choose to have rule over us. When posed with the question "Who, besides L.E. or military types, 'needs' and 'assault weapon'", I counter with a smile, "Why does Officer Friendly need an such things? Are we at war with the citizens of the U.S.?" If the purpose of hi cap mags and "assault weapons" is nothing more than to "kill the most people in short order" then why, I ask, do we arm our "Peace Officers" with such devices? Is it now their duty to kill as many of us as they are able as quickly as they can? It comes down to a very simple set of philosophical and political ideals. Citizens within a free society, having their inherent rights as humans, have no need to justify those rights to anyone. Govt. does not "grant" Rights, it recognizes them as a matter of its Social Contract with the governed to continue as a moral authority within that society. As soon as we take the inherently defensive position of having to prove our "need" to enjoy any given Right, we hand to our opponents the high ground. Last edited by Dalek; May 6, 2013 at 01:59 PM.

May 6, 2013, 08:37 AM	#22
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Boy, that video is hokey!!! First of all, the shooter has a horrible flinching problem - shuts his eyes every time he pulls the trigger. Second, how many of you actually looked at the brass? It's .22 brass! Whoever made this video - please we really do notice little things like that. Last edited by Skans; May 6, 2013 at 10:24 AM.

May 6, 2013, 09:08 AM	#23
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	In the video's defense, the first time I ever leveled my M-4 at some one and squeezed the trigger, I flinched something fierce. A gun does not make one a steely eyed merchant of death. __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

May 6, 2013, 09:24 AM	#24
deepcreek Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2013 Location: Colorado Posts: 320	I didn't think it was too bad. The lighting and film quality was good. The theme was a little far fetched IMO. I mean it could... happen but seems a little to out there in general. I think it would be more realistic if the bad guys all barged through one door, a few bullets hit and few bullets got wasted on the wall is a haphazard struggle then.. Empty.

May 6, 2013, 09:29 AM	#25
Plumbnut Junior member Join Date: April 28, 2013 Posts: 219	When my doorbell or I get a knock on the door without a call first the first thing I reach for is my pistol. IMO the only way to be prepared is to assume the worst. I also have a system that when my doorbell gets pushed and the TV is on it switchs over to the security camera on the front porch. Home invasions got bad at one time around my parts. Alarm systems dont keep people out but it alerts the neighbors that somthings wrong and limits the time people can "hangout" in te house if they do gain entry.