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March 10, 2009, 09:51 AM | #26 |
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http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-onlin...21379779.shtml
There is a lot of fake cops around the link is to a killing done by one below would be a very bad thing for any woman. Man held in fake cop incident Nassau County authorities arrested a Jacksonville man Thursday after a bizarre encounter during which a woman reported being stopped by a bogus cop. The woman said she was driving on Florida 200 in Nassau County on April 1 when she was pulled over by someone in a white Ford Crown Victoria with a blue light on its dash. When she stopped, a man dressed in a blue uniform checked her driver's license and insurance card and released her after a warning. Dale Walter Ruhnau, 47, was charged with impersonating a police officer. Ruhnau, who is not a law enforcement officer, was being held Friday in the Nassau County jail. |
March 10, 2009, 10:17 AM | #27 | |
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I try to see the other side of issues but sometimes I think people go a bridge too far in their animus to Law Enforcement. Bad things happen in life, no Cop goes to work to hit 269 Main street instead of 296 Main street. I feel to assign bad intentions and maliciousness does not advance the argument. If you have the misfortune of having a "No Knock Warrant" mistakenly served at your residence put your hands up and comply and Litigate. If is isn't a Police raid do what you gotta do. However, I think that there are so few screw ups with No knock raids to make most of the dicussion moot, I compare it to the antis fixation on the .50. It's provocative to have grandma baking cookies and the SWAT team doing an entry. It is provocative to have a .50 blow up a watermelon through a ballistic vest. Both instances do not happen in the real world with any meaningful regularity Last edited by Wagonman; March 10, 2009 at 10:26 AM. |
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March 10, 2009, 11:20 AM | #28 | |
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No doubt strange things can happen if a 7 foot California giant can get caught up in a wrongful Virginia raid. What are the odds of that?
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?se...ent&id=4694491
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March 10, 2009, 11:55 AM | #29 |
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Lets also look at the reality that sometimes police officers are involved in crime. I think it would not be a stretch to say that on more than one occasion actual police officers have illegally executed no knock raids on drug houses. Not often, and not something I am worried about, but someone dressed in black yelling police is not all that convincing when they just kicked down your door.
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March 10, 2009, 11:56 AM | #30 | |
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March 10, 2009, 12:13 PM | #31 | |
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They say no knocks are needed so drug suspects won't flush evidence. If the person is a dealer they are going to be leaving the house eventually to sell some. The house can be entered when they are gone or the person can be apprehended outside the house. The only reason police today use them is because they have an ever increasing military ideology and staking a place out and doing a low key arrest just doesn't give the same rush as breaking down a door at 3am and getting to shove your gun in someone's face. I'm not sure what you call a country that allows these type of police activities but it sure isn't the USA anymore and I want my country back. |
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March 10, 2009, 12:35 PM | #32 | |
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I am sorry but at least in my jurisdiction it takes more than a CI to authorize a No Knock warrant. A CI gets you a target that needs to be watched. Everyone who goes in and out is IDed for a period of time. Licenses are run. Ownership is verified.
So it is not the fast and loose cowboy nonsense you and the Leftist Cato institute are purporting. I am still troubled by the animus. I also disagree with the notion of the Police becoming militarized. If SWAT was patrolling or answering Police calls on a regular basis you MIGHT have a point. The Police are outgunned out there, I have been involved in several recoveries of AKs and ARs---I don't carry one. We also have had a rash of shootings with the 5.7 cartridge. The reason for the 3am go time is there are not many bystanders milling about not for some rush. The rush is just a welcome byproduct. Quote:
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March 10, 2009, 12:57 PM | #33 |
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Banning no knock warrants is a bad idea. However they should not be, and from my understanding in most jurisdictions are not, easy to get.
There should certainly be a higher standard for approving such warrants (from the police to the judge) than regular search warrants. |
March 10, 2009, 01:26 PM | #34 |
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This happened in Atlanta a couple of years ago, the indictment pretty well tells the story: Cops did a no-knock based on info supplied by a snitch, the cops claimed. The old lady fired at the door where the cops were trying to enter. The old lady missed, well trained cops shot each other up and killed the old lady, planted drugs at the scene, that they brought with them on the drug raid btw, after a search turned up nothing. Cops lied to investigators and tried to cover up their crime. What is not mentioned is that two of the cops were recently convicted of murder.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...g+raid+Atlanta |
March 10, 2009, 02:04 PM | #35 | |
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Well said and very true. What you are describing is not the America I knew as a kid and it's not what I stood on yellow footprints for. |
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March 10, 2009, 02:20 PM | #36 | |
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March 10, 2009, 02:31 PM | #37 | ||
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Also, the Cato Institute is hardly "leftist." Attempting to pidgeonhole a source so that they can be more easily ignored is a time-honored tactic, but before you try to paint the Cato Institute as pushing some liberal agenda I recommend you peruse their website. In particular you should check out their materials on gun policy, economic policy, and environmental policy. They lean libertarian, not liberal. On many issues, they're seen as more conservative than most. Quote:
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March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM | #38 |
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I am very grateful for what police do every day. I get very upset everytime I hear of one being injured while performing their duties. That being said I don't believe it would be far fatched for a citizen to defend themselves in situations previously mentioned. Police are not forced to choose their profession and they are there to defend us citizens from the criminals. If they mistake the citizen they are supposed to be protecting for the criminal they are after it is their butt that should be held liable. If the citizen does a good job of defending themselves from what could be perceived as a home invader, good for them. It is a crappy situation either way. :barf:
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March 10, 2009, 02:42 PM | #39 | |
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Robbery Ring Disguised as Drug Raids Nets Convictions for Former LA Cops Wednesday, January 30, 2008 LOS ANGELES — Two former police officers were convicted in federal court Wednesday of participating in a robbery ring that disguised home invasions as drug raids. William Ferguson, 35, a former Los Angeles policeman, and his 33-year-old brother, Joseph, a former Long Beach officer, were convicted of charges including conspiracy to deprive people of their rights under color of law and conspiracy to possess marijuana and cocaine. William Ferguson was found guilty of 13 charges and acquitted of five counts. His brother was convicted of three counts. Jurors deadlocked on 18 other counts. Defense attorneys said they would appeal. Prosecutors did not immediately say whether they would retry the brothers on the deadlocked charges. Sentencing was set for April. Prosecutors said the ring conducted about 40 robberies from 1999 to 2001 in which members would steal cash and drugs, then sell them on the street. Fifteen people, including the ring's suspected leader, former LAPD Officer Ruben Palomares, have pleaded guilty in the investigation. Palomares worked with William Ferguson in the LAPD's scandal-tinged Rampart Division until both were fired in 2003. He testified against the brothers at trial. |
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March 10, 2009, 03:05 PM | #40 |
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Of course, pnac, that just furthers WA's claim that the only people in any way likely to be the target of such crimes are those already involved in criminal activities (like dealers). I still think it's questionable whether policies that facilitate crimes are a great idea, whether the targets of those crimes are criminals or not.
I think the problem, and the reason getting any traction on this issue is so difficult, is that it's not really a clear-cut civil rights issue. Warrants are being issued, due process is observed, and while mistakes are made the intent is there to honor the rights of citizens. The only real issue is public safety, and whether the gains made by issuing no-knock warrants outweigh what danger they pose to law-abiding citizens. Which, at the end of the day, isn't much...you can find a long list of instances of dead law-abiding citizens, but those are over the course of a couple decades. Much like school shootings, statistically these incidents don't happen. I'd still argue that the upside isn't worth it, but I don't necessarily expect people to automatically accept that. |
March 10, 2009, 03:29 PM | #41 |
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The chances of being the victim of such a robbery are so incredibly small that I don't feel the need to specifically prepare for it. When this situation actually plays out it is highly publicized. I think that causes some of us to overestimate the probability of this happening.
I could get stuck by lighting, but I don't wear a lighting rod hat, and I could get hit by an asteroid, but I'm not going to go about preparing for that kind of situation either. In the situation of somebody banging on my door in the wee hours of the morning I would look out of my peephole in the door and confirm that it isn't one of my neighbors with a dire emergency. After I saw that it looked like cops I would go to my room, shut and lock the door, call 911 and confirm weather it is the cops or not. If it was the cops I would cooperate with them even if I knew they had the wrong address rather than risk getting shot. |
March 10, 2009, 03:35 PM | #42 | |
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March 10, 2009, 04:09 PM | #43 | |
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JuanCarlos makes a couple of good points. The incidents ARE often over reported in the media, making it appear more common than it really is (we gunowners can identify with that, I think), but the benefits of no knock warrants aren't worth the risk.
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March 10, 2009, 04:54 PM | #44 | |
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Whether a criminal or not I do not believe anyone in this situation could be held responsible for defending themselves in this situation. I do not believe that a drug dealer loses his right to defend his own safety from robbers when he deals drugs. If a drug dealer calls the police to report he is being robbed, should they reply, "sorry, we think you are a drug dealer lets see how this plays out." In my mind a drug dealer has the same right to protect himself as a diamond dealer. Like a diamond dealer he does not have free license to rob or kill, but if someone comes into his house intending harm upon him I do not think he should sit there and take it. In the case of a no knock warrant I do not think it is reasonable to expect anyone to know who it is breaking into their house. As previously pointed out and supported by provided sources it is not unheard of for police to be involved in illegal drug raids. I am pretty sure there was a similar ring in NY and FL in the past decade. I want statistics showing how many shootouts with criminals result from these warrants. Why can't the police grab them when they are out of the house? Is this a way to circumvent our arguably broken court system? |
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March 10, 2009, 05:04 PM | #45 | |
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March 10, 2009, 09:21 PM | #46 | ||
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March 10, 2009, 10:16 PM | #47 |
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I can't speak for the rest of the country but I can assure you that in Florida, there is no such thing as a "No knock" warrant. Having written and executed well over a hundred warrants (mostly drug related) I can safely say that no judge in our judicial district (or any I've heard of) would sign off on a warrant if you put a no knock stipulation in it.
Can you get away with a short knock and announce? Sure. It all depends on the circumstances, the type of warrant, the suspects, the type of violation etc. If you are executing a warrant on a residence occupied by a group of armed gang members wanted for robbery, you can probably justify, from an officer safety standpoint, a short K&A. The courts recognize that serving a warrant is dangerous and unless there is obvious, intentional midconduct on the part of the officers, they will grant some leeway. If you're hitting an indoor marijuana grow where the suspects are not known to be armed or violent, you'd better give a longer K&A. Why? Not as much obvious danger and it's nearly impossible to destory the evidence of a grow in 60 seconds. Now, if they see you coming and run back into the house...it's game on with no K&A required (they already know that you're there and they're apparently not going to cooperate and let you in) The key (in Florida anyway) to the whole K&A thing is to allow a "reasonable" time for the occupants to answer the door. Now, define reasonable? It depends on many variables and is not set in stone. If we knock and no one answers but we can hear people scrambling around inside...we're coming in. We don't know if you're destroying evidence or getting a weapon. As for hitting the wrong house, I have never personally seen how it can be done if you (as the officer writing/executing the warrant) do your job properly. We've all heard the horror stories so it does happen but thankfully, it's the exception. As mentioned by another poster, if you are on the receiving end of one of these exceptions, the best course of action is to cooperate immediately. Any attempts to do otherwise will be delt with. Remember that we don't know at that time that we're in the wrong house and will just assume that you're a BG with a gun and take the necessary action. It's not the time to try and engage in gunplay or dialog. Let the team secure the house and let the smoke clear...believe me, the mistake will make itself evident pretty quickly Believe me in that there will be no doubt in your mind that it's the cops. My suggestion is live to sue as you'll have a great law suit if they hit the wrong house. For those who have never written or executed a search warrant, I would suggest reading some to see the amount of work that goes into them. It's not rocket science but you have to have your ducks in a row |
March 10, 2009, 11:06 PM | #48 |
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How about some irony? After seeing this thread last night, I heard Sheriff Parker of the county just south of me (Tehama County, CA) on the radio this morning talking about having had several home invasions involving fake cops.
I don't have time now to locate documentation, but take it for what it's worth.
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March 10, 2009, 11:18 PM | #49 |
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Bottom line...No Knock Warrants should not be allowed.
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March 10, 2009, 11:18 PM | #50 |
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In Minneapolis MN cops raided an innocent family with six young children. The father shot at them through the bedroom door and the cops fired many rounds into the bedroom. It is a miracle no one was killed. The family got an apology. The cops got medals.
They claimed it wasn't their fault because they got bad information from an informant. We all know how reliable criminals and drug dealers are. I think several cops up the line of command should have been fired. These raids need to end. By the way, the cops were searching for guns. How does that make you feel? 911 transscript and story http://wcco.com/iteam/i.team.police.2.651664.html Cops get medals http://www.startribune.com/local/260...lightModules:1 |
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