Jammin and burnin

Mehefski · March 3, 2014, 01:01 PM

I am loading 45 ACPs with Win Auto Comp. I'm using 200gn Rn.
They are jamming and have powder burns down the sides of the case.
The chart says to use 6.7 - 7.0 gns. I started at
6.0gns and was getting jams and burns so I went to 5.4 and still got them.
I went down to 5.0gns and got no burns but lost my recoil.
Any ideas? Should I go to 230gn bullets? The gun shoots great with Accurate#2 at the chart loads...
I also put a slight crimp on the cases..
Help!

jwrowland77 · March 3, 2014, 01:21 PM

Chart says 6.7-7 and you used 6.0?

I'd say start at 6.7. You probably won't have the jams and the burns will go away as you should have more pressure for the case to close off more.

mehavey · March 3, 2014, 01:55 PM

^^^^^^^
There's a reason it's call "Minimum" load.

At 5gr I'd be wondering about making the muzzle.

TATER · March 3, 2014, 02:27 PM

Why are you going backwards..
Please, Please be aware, Some powders will not tolerate being reduced like that.. You can really hurt yourself and damage the firearm.

dickttx · March 3, 2014, 07:37 PM

Yep, you are going backwards. Both are signs of too low loads.
Start at your minimum load and work up.

noylj · March 3, 2014, 08:56 PM

Tater: it isn't called a minimum load, it is called a starting load.
5.0gn of any powder will make the muzzle. It is down at 1.0gn and less where you can stick a bullet (that is why almost ALL squibs are NO POWDER loads).

"Burn" on the side of the case means that pressure was so low that the case couldn't expand to seal the chamber.
They are jamming because there isn't enough recoil to cycle the slide. This is all discussed in any good manual.
This may be an insult, but have you read any manuals?

mnoirot64 · March 3, 2014, 08:57 PM

I'm sure your issues will clear up when you get up to the published minimum load. I'm a bit surprised the slide cycled at all with your 6 gr load.

CS86 · March 3, 2014, 09:29 PM

The posts above are good comments. Keep in mind if you are trying to go with any lower charge, then the recommended starting point, to be caution that the bullet does clear the barrel. If something just didn't sound right upon firing, disassemble and check things over. Make sure to read the loading manuals. I haven't seen it with pistols, but some rifles highly advise not to undercharge a certain powder due to radical pressure. Follow the books and you should be good.

Wreck-n-Crew · March 3, 2014, 09:58 PM

Autocomp will soot up when undercharged and burn much cleaner when proper load is reached. I have found my 9mm sooty and after discovering my scale being off I got my charge up proper and they look identical to WW.

When you drop the charge too much you will see the slide start to short stroke like that.

Sierra280 · March 3, 2014, 10:53 PM

I only reload for rifles, so this thread is kind of interesting.

Is secondary explosive effect only a danger to bottleneck cartridges? Reduced loads can be catastrophic in a rifle.

Mehefski · March 3, 2014, 11:15 PM

Thanks to all for the advice! I will bring the loads up to the proper amounts and see if that makes it right. It's a great resource having you to go to when I can't think of the cure. I really appreciate the friendly answers, but will take the sarcasm too, we all learn by our mistakes and with the help of others kind enough to share their knowledge.

Wreck-n-Crew · March 4, 2014, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Thanks to all for the advice! I will bring the loads up to the proper amounts and see if that makes it right. It's a great resource having you to go to when I can't think of the cure. I really appreciate the friendly answers, but will take the sarcasm too, we all learn by our mistakes and with the help of others kind enough to share their knowledge.

NP. BE safe and keep distractions away when reloading!

Quote:

Is secondary explosive effect only a danger to bottleneck cartridges?

Some say a "Secondary Explosion" (SEE) in rifle cartridges are more akin to Bigfoot than to an actual secondary explosion from a "light" load. I am not saying it don't exist, but like so many sightings and claims it really makes it hard to see through all the Smoke. I have read and talked to people and it's hard to find two people in the same place with the same opinion on the subject.

Everything from double charges to misrepresented hangfire's and wrong powders being used without data while guessing their way through it have been to blame equally as much as a Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE). Just really hard to tell from where I'm standing.

Sierra280 · March 4, 2014, 12:38 PM

There actually is solid scientific data to back up 'SEE'

The Dec. 2012 issue of Handloader had an article titled "Chamber Pressure Revelations"

"In simplest terms, a pressure excursion occurs when a reduced load of smokeless powder leaves significant unoccupied space in a cartridge case. The primer ignites the powder nearest the flash hole, which begins to burn and creates a pressure wave. This wave races forward to the base of the bullet and the shoulder of the case and is reflected back where it encounters additional pressure waves resulting from the progressive burning of the powder. The collision of these waves, for want of a better term, can result in a sudden "shock" wave and potentially destructive pressure excursion"

The article gives all the tests used and numbers and technical data to back it up. Although in re-reading it I answered my own question, as the phenomenon is associated with slow burning powders (h4831 e.g).

If nothing else Saint Ackley believed it happened, that's good enough for me!!

March 3, 2014, 01:01 PM	#1
Mehefski Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2014 Posts: 6	Jammin and burnin I am loading 45 ACPs with Win Auto Comp. I'm using 200gn Rn. They are jamming and have powder burns down the sides of the case. The chart says to use 6.7 - 7.0 gns. I started at 6.0gns and was getting jams and burns so I went to 5.4 and still got them. I went down to 5.0gns and got no burns but lost my recoil. Any ideas? Should I go to 230gn bullets? The gun shoots great with Accurate#2 at the chart loads... I also put a slight crimp on the cases.. Help!

March 3, 2014, 07:37 PM	#5
dickttx Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2011 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 500	Yep, you are going backwards. Both are signs of too low loads. Start at your minimum load and work up. __________________ Education teaches you the rules, experience teaches you the exceptions (Plagiarized from Claude Clay)

March 3, 2014, 09:58 PM	#9
Wreck-n-Crew Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,820	Autocomp will soot up when undercharged and burn much cleaner when proper load is reached. I have found my 9mm sooty and after discovering my scale being off I got my charge up proper and they look identical to WW. When you drop the charge too much you will see the slide start to short stroke like that. __________________ If you ever have to use a firearm, *you don't get to pick the scenario!*

March 3, 2014, 01:21 PM	#2
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Chart says 6.7-7 and you used 6.0? I'd say start at 6.7. You probably won't have the jams and the burns will go away as you should have more pressure for the case to close off more.

March 3, 2014, 01:55 PM	#3
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,886	^^^^^^^ There's a reason it's call "Minimum" load. At 5gr I'd be wondering about making the muzzle.

March 3, 2014, 02:27 PM	#4
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Why are you going backwards.. Please, Please be aware, Some powders will not tolerate being reduced like that.. You can really hurt yourself and damage the firearm.

March 3, 2014, 08:56 PM	#6
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	Tater: it isn't called a minimum load, it is called a starting load. 5.0gn of any powder will make the muzzle. It is down at 1.0gn and less where you can stick a bullet (that is why almost ALL squibs are NO POWDER loads). "Burn" on the side of the case means that pressure was so low that the case couldn't expand to seal the chamber. They are jamming because there isn't enough recoil to cycle the slide. This is all discussed in any good manual. This may be an insult, but have you read any manuals?

March 3, 2014, 08:57 PM	#7
mnoirot64 Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2013 Location: Clarksville, Tennessee Posts: 365	I'm sure your issues will clear up when you get up to the published minimum load. I'm a bit surprised the slide cycled at all with your 6 gr load.

March 3, 2014, 09:29 PM	#8
CS86 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2012 Location: South Dakota Posts: 224	The posts above are good comments. Keep in mind if you are trying to go with any lower charge, then the recommended starting point, to be caution that the bullet does clear the barrel. If something just didn't sound right upon firing, disassemble and check things over. Make sure to read the loading manuals. I haven't seen it with pistols, but some rifles highly advise not to undercharge a certain powder due to radical pressure. Follow the books and you should be good.

March 3, 2014, 10:53 PM	#10
Sierra280 Junior member Join Date: July 29, 2013 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 569	I only reload for rifles, so this thread is kind of interesting. Is secondary explosive effect only a danger to bottleneck cartridges? Reduced loads can be catastrophic in a rifle.

March 3, 2014, 11:15 PM	#11
Mehefski Junior Member Join Date: January 9, 2014 Posts: 6	Thanks to all for the advice! I will bring the loads up to the proper amounts and see if that makes it right. It's a great resource having you to go to when I can't think of the cure. I really appreciate the friendly answers, but will take the sarcasm too, we all learn by our mistakes and with the help of others kind enough to share their knowledge.

March 4, 2014, 12:38 PM	#13
Sierra280 Junior member Join Date: July 29, 2013 Location: Gardnerville, NV Posts: 569	There actually is solid scientific data to back up 'SEE' The Dec. 2012 issue of Handloader had an article titled "Chamber Pressure Revelations" "In simplest terms, a pressure excursion occurs when a reduced load of smokeless powder leaves significant unoccupied space in a cartridge case. The primer ignites the powder nearest the flash hole, which begins to burn and creates a pressure wave. This wave races forward to the base of the bullet and the shoulder of the case and is reflected back where it encounters additional pressure waves resulting from the progressive burning of the powder. The collision of these waves, for want of a better term, can result in a sudden "shock" wave and potentially destructive pressure excursion" The article gives all the tests used and numbers and technical data to back it up. Although in re-reading it I answered my own question, as the phenomenon is associated with slow burning powders (h4831 e.g). If nothing else Saint Ackley believed it happened, that's good enough for me!!