The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old February 25, 2006, 08:34 PM   #26
Hard Ball
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 1999
Location: California
Posts: 3,925
New Orleans sfter the hurricane tells us two things

1) The police may take no action against rioters and looters. You cannot count on them. They may try to confiscate your guns. Do not be a "good citizen and give them up.

2) Rioters and looters fear people with guns. A determined man with a good semiautomatic rifle and lots of spare magazines can usually demoralize them and drive them off.
__________________
"I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."
Hard Ball is offline  
Old February 25, 2006, 09:25 PM   #27
aspen1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2005
Posts: 1,030
true..true..+ rioteers will probably fear you more than the cops since you don't have a police ethical code to worry about..whats Miranda????
aspen1964 is offline  
Old February 25, 2006, 09:53 PM   #28
rapier144
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2005
Location: tennessee
Posts: 686
If you look at when riots that break out in the worlds third world countries what's one of the first things you see. The abandonment of the embassies. Those are fortified postions and yet they get out while the gettings good.They know they can't last a long term seige.And in a riot you don't know how long it will last. Its not worth the cost to stay. Sure they can kill quite a few of the rioters. I will retreat til i have no choice but to fight.Staying in my stick framed house and taking cover behind my refrigerator is not my idea of having a tactical advantage.But thats just my opinion. Sorry don't mean to P.O. anyone.
__________________
Scan and Breathe Scan and Breathe
Stupidity should hurt
rapier144 is offline  
Old February 25, 2006, 10:05 PM   #29
aspen1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2005
Posts: 1,030
when in a foreign country surrounded by foreign uptight people..getting out IS a good idea...your own country is different..sticks?...house of the three little pigs????
aspen1964 is offline  
Old February 25, 2006, 10:58 PM   #30
22-rimfire
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 19, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 5,323
Rioters are usually poorly armed. If I'm in fear of my life, I don't know what would happen until it happened. But, I would stand my ground-live or die.

Against an organized force (army), I would flee as quickly as possible.
22-rimfire is offline  
Old February 25, 2006, 11:17 PM   #31
Ga Johnny
Member
 
Join Date: January 19, 2006
Posts: 75
Glenn,

That was great, my sides are killing me now but it was worth it.



Commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas to the rescue, don't worry mister, I got my ak 47 here and I've been killing people (on paper targets) for years there's nothing to it. I can see it now
Ga Johnny is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:07 AM   #32
riverrat66
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 23, 2004
Location: Western New York
Posts: 394
Withdraw or Fight?

Well, it's after 6pm which means it's gonna be dark soon and I only have twenty minutes to get prepared. If I leave it will take me all of 20 minutes just to load my weapons and ammo into my truck not counting my family and the dog. Then I have to consider how large is the riot or is it a civil war? I live in a suburban neighborhood and if I start shooting I might be shooting into my neighbors house so I would have to pick my shots very carefully and it's gonna be dark soon. Do I really want to try to get out and away to my land in the boonies where no one will bother me? It's after 6pm and it will be dark soon! My son and I could cover almost the entire neighborhood from the roof (he was with the 82nd airborne) and our families could hide in the basement but it's gonna be dark soon. Do you get my drift? It's gonna be dark soon and that changes everything! If it was daylight I could sit up on the roof and have a turkey shoot all day long but in darkness it's an entirely different ballgame. In darkness someone could toss a Molotov cocktail on your house and you would never know where it came from and now you're really in trouble.
To be honest I don't know what I would do until that time actually came. I would have to weigh my options and decide what was in the best interest for me and my family at that particular time. But don't think that I haven't thought about it, that's why I have thousands of rounds of ammo for my many rifles and handguns. The only thing I don't have is body armor but that's a different thread.
riverrat66 is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:08 AM   #33
Geopagus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
For those of you strongly opinionated one way or the other. Get over it. It's not always feasible to stay nor is it always feasible to go and I know this from personal experience. Be prepared and do the best you can with the means you have.
Geopagus is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:18 AM   #34
aspen1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 2005
Posts: 1,030
I move on to lighter, happier threads...
aspen1964 is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:24 AM   #35
Geopagus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 12, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 101
As do I aspen Exit stage right.
Geopagus is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:26 AM   #36
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
Quote:
If you look at when riots that break out in the worlds third world countries what's one of the first things you see. The abandonment of the embassies. Those are fortified postions and yet they get out while the gettings good.
Yeah, but they have marines covering their butts while evacuating, they have blackhawks and apaches for air cover, and they are usually evacuating to a known-safe location on an aircraft carrier about 10 miles out to sea.

If I leave in my Dodge pickup, I've got 50,000 other yahoos who chose to leave at the same time, clogging up the highway so no one can move and any given car is easy pickings for rioters or opportunists.

My house is a better site. Board up the doors, secure the windows, make sure you have 2-3 fire escape routes and get a good vantage point from the second floor with as many rounds in as many guns as you can get.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 03:07 AM   #37
Blackwater OPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 11, 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,152
Hmmm, I simply stated what I would do, without personal attacks on anyone else. I you think its best to evac, then do so. If you think its best to stay and fight then do that. I live in LA and I still remember the 92' riots. I am not going to get caught on the street behind some other cars, get dragged out and beaten to death. In fact the whole point is probably moot since there will certainly be a tac alert and I wont be home to protect my house anyways. Bottom line is standing my ground and protecting my home does not make me or anyone else a "Commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas". In fact there is quite a tradition of doing just that in this country. Stop the name calling and grow up.
__________________
"Those who would give up essential Liberty,
to purchase a little temporary Safety,
deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-Ben Franklin

Spc. Jeremy M. Campbell
Died 9/1/2005
and the best DS ever
MSG Matthew Ritz
Died 11.23.2005
matthewritz.com

For those who have had to fight for it, Life holds a special meaning that the protected will never know.

(\__/)
(='.'=) Someone set us up the bunny!
(")_(")
Blackwater OPS is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 12:58 PM   #38
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
The key issue is your goal state. Mine is to survive along with my family.

The initial poster had saving material positions as a close to equally important priority.

The initial poster also decided to start the thread with Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." .

I regard that as irrelevant baiting. One might has easily have said that you are a minority and a racist mob is coming to your house. This has in fact happened. African-american men defended their homes and let their families escape.

Thus, one has to discuss mind set and motive. This is a common discussion in most tactical classes. Even the initial poster had posited in most civilian training classes that he would not take an opportunity to flee because:

Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it. .

It would not be judged as a judicious act and probably as posturing.

The only sensible solution to such a situation is:

1. Your priority is you and your family's physical safety.
2. Chose the option that optimizes it.
3. If your action saves your stuff, that is nice but epiphenomenological.

One trains to have the ability to use lethal force - as a tool for saving your butt first.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 07:11 PM   #39
OneInTheChamber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2005
Posts: 789
Well, when the mob is over running my location; I bet the reloaders won't be far behind. They're gonna want that huge pile of brass that will be next to my body.

I won't hand myself over to the control of an out of control mob.
__________________
Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.
OneInTheChamber is offline  
Old February 26, 2006, 09:40 PM   #40
LICCW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 266
Lots of variables

For me, I have to know whether its winter or summer. My house is waterfront, I get my wife, dog, guns, bankbooks etc and get on my boat and I'm gone man. Not worried about traffic on the water, and no one is sneaking up on me once I'm just a few yards offshore. I'll head across the bay and be in another state in 20 minutes. let 'em burn my house. Steal what? my Pier-One furniture? My cheapest one they had at Best Buy DVD? If you saw my house and stuff you'd think only an idiot would defend it. I'm not saying that I'd do the same thing if my house and stuff were really nice. Gun wise i only own one 870, one J frame 340PD, Glock 26, and AR-15. I recently sold off everything else. What would I do if it was winter and the boat's out of the water. Well now I'm a little screwed, but I'd high-tail it if possible. My neigbors are not going to be much help. But they make easy targets, and I don't by comparison, so that might help
LICCW is offline  
Old February 27, 2006, 03:28 PM   #41
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida & Miami
Posts: 3,207
Doug38pr, do you stay awake at night thinking up these off the wall scenerios?
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old February 27, 2006, 09:23 PM   #42
Doug.38PR
Junior member
 
Join Date: January 18, 2005
Posts: 3,298
Quote:
The key issue is your goal state. Mine is to survive along with my family.

The initial poster had saving material positions as a close to equally important priority.

The initial poster also decided to start the thread with Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." .

I regard that as irrelevant baiting. One might has easily have said that you are a minority and a racist mob is coming to your house. This has in fact happened. African-american men defended their homes and let their families escape.

Thus, one has to discuss mind set and motive. This is a common discussion in most tactical classes. Even the initial poster had posited in most civilian training classes that he would not take an opportunity to flee because:

Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it. .

It would not be judged as a judicious act and probably as posturing.

The only sensible solution to such a situation is:

1. Your priority is you and your family's physical safety.
2. Chose the option that optimizes it.
3. If your action saves your stuff, that is nice but epiphenomenological.

One trains to have the ability to use lethal force - as a tool for saving your butt first.
Mr. Meyer (Prof.? I think you mentioned you taught college in another post?)
My post has nothing per se to do with what race the "poor" and "oppressed" might be or might not be (the riots of the French Revolution were white on white. Revolutionaries of all races and backgrounds have always managed to find some problem real or imagined and blown it up to work up those who have less against those who have more in the name of "justice".), it has nothing to do with some wild eyed kid running around in a G.I. Joe outfit or "commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas". It's about a sound and rational man (you me or whoever) having good enough relations with his neighbors to cooperate with them as to defending our homes in an effective and competent way. As far as your neighborhood people being offended at having to take up arms because the rioters might be of a different race doesn't speak well for your neighbors. If a mob of any race is ready to ransack my home and beat me and my family to death and those on my street "I'd kill them as quick as I would a white man" to quote John Wayne (Cahill: U.S. Marshall). In short, race isn't an issue. I would venture to say that you underestimate your neighbors.

It is not about posturing. That statement, while it sounds like an abstract battle cry, is true. If you did what you believe to be right, getting out of Dodge with the wife and children, you would likely come back to a burned pile of rubble. Your home is gone, your clothing is gone, your food is gone, your furnishings are gone, your books are gone, your computer is gone, and family heirlooms are gone to name just a few important items that are either necessities for life, part of your life or part of long hours or even years research or investments that cost a lot of money that you worked hard for.
That is VERY difficult to recover from and could take years, even if your insurance covers it all (I've heard of flood and fire insurance....but riot insurance?...guess it would fall under fire.). You would have to take time off from your job to rebuild and restore yourself. You would have to dig up enough money out of your savings to clothe and feed your family for a long period of time while likey not being able to work due to all the time needed to rebuild and recover. You would have to have a place for you and your family to live in the meantime which would either be renting a home, staying with family or buying a whole new home altogether. Again, think about all those hurricane refugees. Many of them have nothing to go back to...and the poorer ones had very little besides the roof over their head to begin with.
Doug.38PR is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 11:43 AM   #43
Glenn E. Meyer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 20,064
Oh, give me a break. I won't like to lose my house but you are just posturing.

I would give my house a 1000 times over if I get my wife and kid to safety. Anybody who doesn't see that is an idiot, to be blunt.

Also, you did play the race card and posture. Tough if you don't buy it.

I'm a psychologist (prof) and I understand hidden motivations, Doug and for our readers, you have a consistent tendency not to evaluate the best outcome of situations but continually go for a gun based solution even if it is clearly not in your best interest. You need to work on this. I hate to be harsh but that's what I read. I see you wanting to be the hero that organizes the neighborhood against the 'poor' and 'oppressed'.

In your scenario, if I have 30 minutes to get out of the way of a major riot with unknown numbers and weaponery - while I do have significant firearms - I'm gone.

If I knew that fleeing was dangerous and I had sufficient time for a realistic defense - not a fantasy - I might like the Korean merchants defend my property. Your scenario is a get out of Dodge one - unless fleeing is more risky to my life.

Do you have children? Name for me one physical position that is worth a child. I went through a significant life threatener last year with my daughter. If you told me, I could gurantee her life by burning my house to the ground - give me the matches. If Satan told me to put you inside when it burned, I would have done that.

Now, I'm faced with a mob but I could get her and the wife to safety. NO, I'm going to stay there and fight it out for the couch and my computer. What pure stupidity.

BTW, you can backup your computer externally and off site. You can buy a new Dell for $399.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 12:21 PM   #44
newerguy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2005
Posts: 218
I know a good criminal defense lawyer who charges about $100K for a murder defense. Add to that your investigator, court and witness fees, travel expenses, even photocopying charges, plus your lost time from work, and an acquittal in a trial might run you almost $200,000. Seems someone needs to put up their house when there is going to be a murder trial. Even if you win the murder case, you can still get a conviction for brandishing a weapon, discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling (NYS Law) or something that that, and live with a violent crime on your record. In my case, an arrest (no a conviction) for a crime must be reported to my employer and I can be fired. That has a cost too.

Forget civil suits afterwards, you might get sued or your might not. Some people win, some don't.

I don't want to shoot anyone. Some people either want to, or don't care whether they take a life. Fine, don't let it bother you. Just remember, that if you do, you run the risk of a prosecutor making you spend everything in your savings, including the value of your house, to win an acquittal. You want to risk losing your home and your savings for some property that's insured or for $100 in your wallet?

I won't risk everything I have for a few bucks and a credit card I can cancel in 15 minutes. I won't risk everything for a house that's insured or some old pictures. Sorry to say, I won't even risk everything to save a stranger I think might be getting held up (but might be getting arrested).
newerguy is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 12:40 PM   #45
Leif
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2005
Posts: 1,237
No internet commando here ... if there's a massive civil disturbance and escape is possible, I'm gone.

The point was made that one's possessions were not worth dying for. I wholeheartedly agree. I would add, at risk of becoming flameworthy, that nothing I own is worth killing for, either, even if that means it's gone and the insurance isn't going to cover it. If forced into a position of defense, it's not going to be because I'm defending my TV, or guns, or whatever. I'm not taking human life over property, period.

When people talk about sitting on their roof with their deer rifle, they start to sound like they're acting offensively rather than defensively.
Leif is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 12:48 PM   #46
LICCW
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 25, 2005
Posts: 266
Riot like a hurricane

You know, a riot's like a hurricane. You think you can stick it out, that your plans are solid, that you are prepared for everything. Then it turns out you're not, but by then its too late.
LICCW is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 01:07 PM   #47
Musketeer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2005
Posts: 3,733
Assuming we can't get out, and given my location on an isthmus that may be true, we stand and fight. I do NOT hand over guns to others. I don't know any of my neighbors well enough to trust with a loaded gun behind me, especially if they have not taken the time to get one of their own and learn how to use it.

Both ends of the street will have a large wood sign painted "Armed Citizens Present. Rioters Will Be Shot!" with a nice pattern of 12 gague 00 in it for emphasis. Given the population density where I am I doubt even one or two officers would be able to make it to our block if the balloon went up.

Plain and simlpe, riots are made up of cowards. These are people who could not do anything on their own and they depend on the mob for support. A concerted and willfull defense will drive them off to easier prey. That being said I really do not want them to come anywhere near my block and would rather not shoot anyone. Note though that as restrictive as NY gun laws and deadly force laws are there is one case where use of deadly force is clearly denoted as acceptable in NYS Penal Law. That is to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling.
Musketeer is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 01:31 PM   #48
Mikeyboy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 31, 2005
Posts: 1,231
Just like Blackwater, I remember the 92 riots and I lived a few blocks away from a Fat Tuesday Riot (which ironically is today) and a few other riots here in Philly. People who drove in the area were pulled from the cars and I will put this politely, those on foot not particpating in the riot were attacked. I hunkered down, loaded up (at the time I had a 30/30 and a 12 gauge defending a condo) and waited. I know for certain that if I tried to get to the car (on street parking so I would have to walk at least a block to my car and I did not have a handgun or a CCW) and drive out "something" might have happened. This is a Big reason why I moved to the burbs. Anyway you are more vunerable out of your home. Trust me, I am not going to fight to the death to save property that is insured, but if your trapped you better taking a defensive position in your home, then trying to move you and your family thru a rioting mob on foot or in a car.

+1 Mustketeer A simple "You Loot, We Shoot" sign should work wonders.
Mikeyboy is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 04:22 PM   #49
yomama
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2006
Posts: 509
I agree with the leaving asap part. However, if this is not an option it's onto plan b. Sun-Tzu said:

"One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious. One who, fully prepared, awaits the unprepared will be victorious."
-Art of War
yomama is offline  
Old February 28, 2006, 05:42 PM   #50
Jericho9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 10, 2005
Location: Sactown
Posts: 227
this thread has shadows of another one but without the "gun owner image" overtones

see thread: here
__________________
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."
Jericho9mm is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.12055 seconds with 8 queries