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Old November 1, 2010, 10:57 PM   #26
roy reali
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re:BigJimP

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I will also tell you that 2 or 3 out of 10 guns that come out of some of these mfg's seem to be pretty good ....for 2,500 or maybe even 10,000 shells ...but the question is, looking at a gun in a box, how the heck do you know / and what is going to happen if it isn't ...can it be fixed, who will fix it, how long will it be gone, where do you send it ....???
May I ask where you got these figures from? Do you have a reference for them or at least a web link for further study?
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Old November 2, 2010, 07:26 AM   #27
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Sometimes we forget "you get what you pay for."
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:17 AM   #28
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#27
pythagorean
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I don't buy into that anymore. The American Automobile industry by itself disproves that "you get what you pay for" belief. Many products abroad are becoming vastly superior to the norm or what we once considered to be 'outstanding' in quality...and they are much cheaper because of the $$ exchange..China is catching fire with this very quickly.
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:19 AM   #29
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Gather 'round here boys and lemme tell ya there's nothin' I loves better than showing up some snootie with an expensive gun.

Best one was a pheasant hunt. This snob had his fancy English gun. I had my ole side-by-side. Well boys, I sure showed him.

I killed a pile o' pheasants that day. He only got one. The gun snob was darn near tears 'cause my cheap ass gun beat him so bad.

Yessir, lil' ole me and muh $6,000 dollar Arrieta beat an $80,000 Holland and Holland that day.

Then there was the time me an muh lil' old $9,000 Perazzi hit way more of them clay thingies than some fancy Dan with a $100,000 Fabbri. Sure showed him that fancy don't get 'er done.

Ain't I jest AWESOME.
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:44 AM   #30
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PJR,
Well Done --- Nice job of putting things in perspective.
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:46 AM   #31
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"The gun snob was darn near tears 'cause my cheap ass gun beat him so bad."

He was probably thinking about having to clean that one bird (or maybe your cooking for all I know) and all he really wanted to do for supper was dine at a nice restaurant and flirt with the hired help.

In other news, we're not all snobs, it's just that some of us have had our fill of spending money on guns that weren't quite reliable enough - and then having to spend more money to replace them or fix them. Expensive lessons are usually the easiest ones to remember. Reminds me of my first wife...
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Old November 2, 2010, 09:10 AM   #32
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I guess I look at it a different way than the OP. A cheap gun might work OK out of the box, but a cheap gun will always be a cheap gun. Sure, expensive guns can fail, but on average the cheaper the gun the more likely there will be a problem sooner or later. It might be corrosion, or inexpensive parts breaking, etc. Plus I would bet my house that in 20 years parts would be harder to find for a cheap Chinese, Korean, Viet Nam, etc. type gun than a more expensive gun made by a reputable maker. There will be a demand for the better gun if you want to sell it in the future.

I learned a long time ago that cheap will stay cheap & quality will always be quality. The TV show "American Pickers" is about 2 guys going around America looking for quality items from the past. I don't think they have ever said "OH look, this was made in China 40 years ago!!! It's priceless. I've got to have it."
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Old November 2, 2010, 09:18 AM   #33
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When you buy a new gun, perhaps you ask yourself, "Would my grandson be proud to pass this down to his son?" perhaps not.
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Old November 2, 2010, 10:35 AM   #34
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As a teen the sixties and early seventies, I was told by a lot of people Spanish shotguns were junk and to stay away. Some of those same shotguns bring a premium today. I don't see this happening with any Baikal’s but it wouldn't surprise me to see some like the CZ become very sought after.
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Old November 2, 2010, 11:52 AM   #35
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I don't buy into that anymore. The American Automobile industry by itself disproves that "you get what you pay for" belief. Many products abroad are becoming vastly superior to the norm or what we once considered to be 'outstanding' in quality...and they are much cheaper because of the $$ exchange..China is catching fire with this very quickly.
It is true that "you get what you pay for" is not always true. But, for the most part, it is true. That was my point.
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Old November 2, 2010, 12:01 PM   #36
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I was told by a lot of people Spanish shotguns were junk and to stay away.
That would be correct - they had issues with bad heat treating during the time , aka "soft metal". That problem was corrected, and they are now the largest selling group in England of fine SxS, more than their English counterparts.

UTAS, from Turkey, made high-quality guns for S&W and Kimber. Unfortunately, they suffered in sales because of the bad rep on guns from Turkey where everyone thinks Huglu is the only maker. The Kimber was a H&H sidelock action while the S&W is the triggerplate action design - both are very well executed with proper barrel regulation, polished bluing, crisp triggers and excellent wood-to-metal work. The S&W is a true case-colored action, not a cheaper imitation.

Both were worth their original MSRP's, and now can be had for half
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Old November 2, 2010, 02:12 PM   #37
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You don't always get what you pay for but you usually pay for what you get. When I was into trap shooting, I had several B grade guns (BT99, Citori, and others ) but the Remington 870/1100 seam to fit me the best out of the box. Today I shoot a couple rounds a week and am happy with the 870 and 1100 yes I know they are not equal to the better single and double guns but they work for me at my level (presently shooting an 870 that was made in 1955, in like new condition). If you want to be competitive at the top level, you need the best equipment( fitted to you), dedication and good training. I just shoot for fun and enjoy shooting vintage guns.
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Old November 2, 2010, 04:12 PM   #38
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My Dad used to beat those guys had expensive side by sides with a winchester 97 and that was a heavy gun. I will keep my semis, a double just dont do it for me, hate to give up quail when they get up. Only 2 just dont do the covey justice....
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Old November 2, 2010, 07:34 PM   #39
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It's not the hardware, it's the software. But if you're running a Commodor 64 you best be one hella fancy programer.
That being said I just bought a yildez 20ga O/U (my second, I sold the first after deciding my 870 worked better for trap) to get used to the O/U thing. I shoot 2 rounds of skeet per week, this means roughly 2600 rds thru the gun per year if I don't use one of my 311's from time to time. So if it only holds up to 10,000 rds, that's about 4 years of shooting. I paid $400 so a Benj per year, I'm happy. However I have my eye on a K20 with a full set of tubes that I'll never be able to afford so I can appreciate the finer things in life.
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:08 PM   #40
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You don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water. Ill do the same with my springfield GI .45 against a kimbler, and my m14 agenst any fine bolt action .308 and at the end of the day come out ahead. If you want to go spend a few grand on a gun that's on you more power to you. If you want a gun that isn't scared to be dropped in the dirt and mud often times cheaper is better.Which would you rather take down a pot hole filled old muddy dirt road a Lincon or an old ford? Id put money that if the gun in the 1000+ range imported gun malfunctions it'll be more expensive to fix then a $200. About the only thing I can think of that the old saying is true for is ammo. cheap tula and bear just dont come up to snuff when it comes to winchester, federal or even hand loaded.
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:47 PM   #41
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You don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water. Ill do the same with my springfield GI .45 against a kimbler, and my m14 agenst any fine bolt action .308 and at the end of the day come out ahead. If you want to go spend a few grand on a gun that's on you more power to you. If you want a gun that isn't scared to be dropped in the dirt and mud often times cheaper is better.........
And perhaps you can tell s how many championships you have won with either........"blow them out of the water"?? Please

Then again, I also don't drop my guns in the mud.

Spoken by someone who has never owned or shot anything else I would suspect........to each their own - if you prefer an AK type shotgun you can drop in the mud, have at it
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Old November 2, 2010, 08:58 PM   #42
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cheap tula and bear just dont come up to snuff when it comes to winchester, federal or even hand loaded.
UMMMM.... Winchester and Federal ain't zackly premium ammo...
I oughta know... I can afford both!

Brent
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Old November 2, 2010, 09:00 PM   #43
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I don't know, if I were doing a raid on a drug cartel I'd probably choose the Saiga over the K20. Same with the M14 vs say a Cooper bolt action. I can't imagine a roll I'd pick the Springfield over the Kimber. It's all about the game you're playing. I once won $200 off my brother in a race between his corvette and my old 4X4 Toyota. He bet he could beat me "Anytime, anyplace." He just gave me the 2 bills instead of taking his vette down to the river.
Although I'm starting to like this little Yildiz, I have no illusions that it's the equal of the K20, or even the B guns for that matter. Heck, it's not even the equal of my 311's. But it'll do for now.
As a side note, I shot with a fella last week who had a new Citori. I've never seen a gun have that many misfires. We thought maybe it was his reloads, but it did the same with mine and some factory loads. Now by no means am I saying the Citori is a POS gun, but it does show that any company can put out a dog.
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Old November 2, 2010, 09:02 PM   #44
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Why would you want to drop your gun in the mud anyway?

The most expensive shotgun I have was only $500NIB and I would be roy-al-e p***ed if I dropped it, let alone in the mud.

I don't own a $1k shotgun, but I don't shoot competition clays. If I did I would definitly spend the extra money for a gun that could handle that many rounds.

My Savage pump is fine for squirrels, dove and backyard clays. Between myself and my Dad it's probablly had 5000 rounds through it over the last 30 years. (btw that's only about 167 rounds a year)
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Old November 2, 2010, 10:47 PM   #45
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"To each his own and yes I have shot several firearms I prefer. From match lock to the modern day matte mattel. The ones that can take a little dirt when I carry it on the ranch and still be able to preform in a pinch. The tight tolerances of kimbler don't exactly do well with dirt and mud. Yes I have shot one to me a .45 shoots like any other 45.,but that's just me. If I dot do competitions unless it comes to hunting.I got a buddy that got a Citrori and he had the same misfire problem and those things run for what around 2 grand? Winchester and federal my not be premium like Hornady or Black hills but it gets the jobs I need done at not costing me an arm and a leg. I'd take my m1a over anything because when accuracy's on the line it holds its own, especially when a second shot is needed.
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Old November 2, 2010, 11:52 PM   #46
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you don't always get what you pay for id put my saiga or s&w 12 ga against any multi 000$ guns any day and ill blow them out of the water.
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Old November 3, 2010, 12:20 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by abelacres
I don't own a $1k shotgun, but I don't shoot competition clays. If I did I would definitly spend the extra money for a gun that could handle that many rounds.
You, like many others, don't quite understand… If you're a serious competitor, you don't spend big bucks for a comp gun because it lasts longer, you do it because it gets you higher scores. The fact that it may last longer is a bonus. When you add up what it costs to compete: travel, lodging, meals, practice rounds, entry fees, added events/purses, and ammo -- give or take a few grand in the price of the gun is insignificant.
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Old November 3, 2010, 12:24 AM   #48
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Unless you've handled and shot a quality O/U you really can't understand... Zippy does
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Old November 3, 2010, 06:55 AM   #49
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I shot trap at the University of Nevada Reno--took those recreational classes along with a major in science.

I used an 870 Wingmaster I bought in 1976. It was a fixed "modified" choke with standard (not magnum) chambering in 12 gauge.

I regularly shot 22-24 out of 25 with that.

I tried it out on doubles and my scores lowered of course. Having to rack the action was enough complication to me to want either an auto or double for two shots.

The 1100 is a great trap gun I think if the double is out of the budget.

But if you get a double you'll want to have both barrels shooting tight patterns to the same point of impact--this is a problem with most inexpensive doubles.

Take the double to the patterning board and find out what it is doing before shooting trap!
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Old November 3, 2010, 07:13 AM   #50
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Zippy-

Thanks for the info. I knew that some of the less expensive guns don't pattern as well or shoot to the same point of aim but I thought the main issue was longevity. I've never shot ANY O/U (I've shot side by sides, pumps, autos, my lever action and one bolt) let alone a 'quality' one but I would sure love to try one.

btw- How long does a comp gun last? How many rounds do you go through in a given period?
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