New Carbine for 3 gun matches

Markk9 · May 30, 2002, 11:18 AM

I was planning on using my Tommy M1927 in the local 3 gun and carbine side matches, but have been told that max weight is 9lbs, damn tommys are 12lbs. While shopping the local gunshops I came across an Olympic Arms Ar-15 in 45ACP, my prayers had been answered. Can't wait to try it out this weekend.

Mark

motorep · May 30, 2002, 04:41 PM

I never heard of a max weight restriction. Is this a local club/local rules thing?

mattjoe · May 30, 2002, 06:09 PM

yeah, whats up with that weight restriction? and is it loaded or unloaded weight?
I know of plenty of rifles used in 3 gun around here that outweigh the 9 pounds. Pretty sure a stock heavy barrelled AR10 outweighs that, and pretty sure my heavy barrel ar15 with free float tube and all the scopes, and bipod stuff stuck on it comes out over 9 pounds easily.

Markk9 · May 31, 2002, 06:24 AM

The max weight thing is a club rule here is the rule:

Weapons used in competition shall be serviceable and safe. Should a weapon become unserviceable, it can be replaced for use in later stages or strings of fire with an acceptably similar gun of the same caliber and action. No optical sight is allowed on any pistol or shotgun.

Pistols: IDPA rules will be used in regards to handguns.

Shotguns: Shotguns will be semi-auto or pump actions with a barrel length no greater than 22 inches. The shotgun magazine tube may not extend past the end of the barrel more than 1 inch. The shotgun may weigh no more than 1 pound over stock weight in police or "riot" configuration. Any device on the weapon to carry extra ammo must comply with length and must be secure enough to hold the ammo during rigorous movement.

Carbines: Carbines will be equipped with a sling or carry strap. Carbines may weigh no more than 9.0 lb. without scope or 10.5 lb. with scope. Carbines will be weighed empty, without mag, but otherwise complete with sling and any other attached accessories. A bipod may be used providing the rifle makes weight with the bipod attached and the bipod extends no more than 14 inches. Iron Sighted Carbines must be equipped with battle sights (i.e. no Redfield target sights). Enhancement of existing battle sights (i.e. National match sights) is permitted.

Holsters and Gear: Holsters must meet IDPA criteria. A competitor's sidearm will be worn for all courses of fire. Competitors will wear their equipment and magazines/spare ammo in a manner consistent with continuous wear (mag pouches, shell loops, etc.). Bags and boxes containing ammo and gear are not allowed on the line or ready area. Mag pouches for the pistol shall suit the holster being used. Duty holsters require duty mag pouches. Mag pouches used with the concealable holster must be concealable as well and carry the mags reasonably tight against the body. Magazine pouches for the pistol or rifle may leave no more than 50% of the magazine protruding from the magazine carrier. This 50% limit includes all portions of the magazine including any base pads. Both rifle and pistol carriers must protect the magazine feed lips. Skeletonized magazine carriers (i.e. IPSC types which do not cover all sides of the magazine, spring clip types, etc.) are not allowed. Devices to hold a spare magazine to the rifle or to the magazine in use must protect the magazine feed lips and must keep dirt out of the spare magazine or a separate protector must be used.

Ammunition: All contestants are required to shoot full power ammo in this competition. Shotguns must be 12 gauge Buckshot (#4 buck or larger) No Slugs. Carbine ammo will be copper plated FMJ and may not be tracer, steel core or armor piercing.

Correia · June 1, 2002, 12:30 AM

Interesting rules, I see it says carbines. I shoot a 21 inch barreled FAL in 3 gun. Not exactly your typical carbine.

Some of the big time matches have weight restrictions on rifles as well. Like the SWAT magazine world championship match, but I think the limit there is 11 pounds for those of us shooting FALs, M1as, and AR10s.

The weight limit is one rule I would probably ditch if I was in charge. Sure you could have a 14 pound .223 rifle, and sure it would have no recoil, but then again, most stages have lots of close targets that will most likely be engaged free hand. I don't think they would get very far ahead that way.

Andrew Wyatt · June 5, 2002, 01:02 AM

There is a pretty good reason for weight limits on rifles and pistols in respect to the Swat magazine world championship 3 gun match (quite a mouthful, actually)

The impression i get from my dad and the other rules makers on the staff is that they have those rules to encourage equipment that would not get the operator killed in an "on the street" situation.

While heavy rifles(which are perforce unwieldy) probably do have some merit in a recreational situation, no army on the globe issues a 14 pound .223 to it's troops, and for good reason, given that the extra weight there could be used for more important stuff, like ammunition and water.

unfortunately, a thompson or an AR in .45 ACP wouldn't be legal, anyway, since the match requires rifles to be in a military rifle caliber (excluding .30 carbine).

Personally, I think requiring the participants to use practical gear in matches is a good idea.

Markk9 · June 5, 2002, 07:26 PM

Andrew,

The Thompson in 45ACP is a military carbine, used by the US in WWII and Korea.

Mark

Correia · June 6, 2002, 02:07 PM

Andrew, that is a valid point that I had not considered. But it would be interesting to compete with a BAR or BREN.

I will be shooting in the WC3gun this year. (L1a1 FAL, 870, 1911) I'm looking forward to it. This will be my first time shooting in a match of that quality, and I'm very excited.

Andrew Wyatt · June 7, 2002, 11:09 PM

I find this whole idea of using a pistol caliber rifle in a 3 gun match intriguing.

admittedly, I don't do any IPSC or IDPA shooting but both the SWAT Magazine WC 3 gun and the SCTC matches i shoot in semi regularly have rifle targets out as far as 300+ yards. It seems sheer folly to use a pistol caliber gun at ranges like that.

do other 3 gun matches use all three guns on pistol courses or something like that?

as for shooting brens and BARs in the match, I actually conversed with my dad about that, and they're generally considered to be crew served weapons. I personally think it would be suitably manly to compete with a BAR, and if i had one and it was legal, i'd do it myself.

There is no restriction against military bolt action rifles. we've never had someone shoot the match with a bolt gun, but I think it would be neat if someone showed up with their lee enfield number 4 mk1(t) I'm sure it'd pass review as a combat worthy and legal for WC3 gun rifle and scope combination.

Correia · June 10, 2002, 08:45 AM

I think most local 3 gun matches are probably limited by range space to 100 yard shots.

Dr.Rob · June 11, 2002, 05:59 PM

Competing with a BAR??

Oh yeah!!!!!!

Now if I could just get the $25k to get a BAR...

Really.. I can understand 'weight restrictions' to keep "target rifles' off the match but teh average garand wieghs 11 pounds.

Food for thought.

And since when is a cal .30 US carbine NOT legal in a carbine match??

Markk9 · June 13, 2002, 06:40 AM

Andrew,

At the club that shoots the three gun, it's a carbine match. Read the rules in the above post the three weapons are: pistol, carbine, and shotgun. If I had to shoot out to three hundred then yes I would switch to a 300 fireball (221 fireball necked up to .30 cal).

Mark

Andrew Wyatt · June 14, 2002, 06:01 PM

what's the definition of a carbine according to your club's rules?
Most carbines i see are rifles with shorter barrels, but still in a rifle caliber.

yankytrash · June 24, 2002, 06:01 PM

Mark,

Could you ask for any kind of procedural penalty to use the Tommygun? I think that'd be cool as hell to use in a competition, and I believe others in the club might think the same.

It might prompt a small change in the club rules, you never know. They might make an exception for those matches with the closer targets.

Remember, it's all about the fun. What's funner than waxin targets with a 1927?

May 30, 2002, 11:18 AM	#1
Markk9 Member Join Date: March 18, 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 91	New Carbine for 3 gun matches I was planning on using my Tommy M1927 in the local 3 gun and carbine side matches, but have been told that max weight is 9lbs, damn tommys are 12lbs. While shopping the local gunshops I came across an Olympic Arms Ar-15 in 45ACP, my prayers had been answered. Can't wait to try it out this weekend. Mark

June 5, 2002, 01:02 AM	#6
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	weight limits on rifles There is a pretty good reason for weight limits on rifles and pistols in respect to the Swat magazine world championship 3 gun match (quite a mouthful, actually) The impression i get from my dad and the other rules makers on the staff is that they have those rules to encourage equipment that would not get the operator killed in an "on the street" situation. While heavy rifles(which are perforce unwieldy) probably do have some merit in a recreational situation, no army on the globe issues a 14 pound .223 to it's troops, and for good reason, given that the extra weight there could be used for more important stuff, like ammunition and water. unfortunately, a thompson or an AR in .45 ACP wouldn't be legal, anyway, since the match requires rifles to be in a military rifle caliber (excluding .30 carbine). Personally, I think requiring the participants to use practical gear in matches is a good idea.

June 11, 2002, 05:59 PM	#11
Dr.Rob Staff Alumnus Join Date: July 28, 1999 Location: Denver Posts: 2,454	Competing with a BAR?? Oh yeah!!!!!! Now if I could just get the $25k to get a BAR... Really.. I can understand 'weight restrictions' to keep "target rifles' off the match but teh average garand wieghs 11 pounds. Food for thought. And since when is a cal .30 US carbine NOT legal in a carbine match?? __________________ You broke into the wrong Rec Room!

June 24, 2002, 06:01 PM	#14
yankytrash Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2001 Location: Farnham, Va Posts: 2,183	Mark, Could you ask for any kind of procedural penalty to use the Tommygun? I think that'd be cool as hell to use in a competition, and I believe others in the club might think the same. It might prompt a small change in the club rules, you never know. They might make an exception for those matches with the closer targets. Remember, it's all about the fun. What's funner than waxin targets with a 1927? __________________ Right turn, Clyde.

May 30, 2002, 04:41 PM	#2
motorep Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: mid-coast Maine Posts: 546	I never heard of a max weight restriction. Is this a local club/local rules thing?

May 30, 2002, 06:09 PM	#3
mattjoe Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2001 Location: in my house or at the gun club Posts: 109	yeah, whats up with that weight restriction? and is it loaded or unloaded weight? I know of plenty of rifles used in 3 gun around here that outweigh the 9 pounds. Pretty sure a stock heavy barrelled AR10 outweighs that, and pretty sure my heavy barrel ar15 with free float tube and all the scopes, and bipod stuff stuck on it comes out over 9 pounds easily.

May 31, 2002, 06:24 AM	#4
Markk9 Member Join Date: March 18, 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 91	The max weight thing is a club rule here is the rule: Weapons used in competition shall be serviceable and safe. Should a weapon become unserviceable, it can be replaced for use in later stages or strings of fire with an acceptably similar gun of the same caliber and action. No optical sight is allowed on any pistol or shotgun. Pistols: IDPA rules will be used in regards to handguns. Shotguns: Shotguns will be semi-auto or pump actions with a barrel length no greater than 22 inches. The shotgun magazine tube may not extend past the end of the barrel more than 1 inch. The shotgun may weigh no more than 1 pound over stock weight in police or "riot" configuration. Any device on the weapon to carry extra ammo must comply with length and must be secure enough to hold the ammo during rigorous movement. Carbines: Carbines will be equipped with a sling or carry strap. Carbines may weigh no more than 9.0 lb. without scope or 10.5 lb. with scope. Carbines will be weighed empty, without mag, but otherwise complete with sling and any other attached accessories. A bipod may be used providing the rifle makes weight with the bipod attached and the bipod extends no more than 14 inches. Iron Sighted Carbines must be equipped with battle sights (i.e. no Redfield target sights). Enhancement of existing battle sights (i.e. National match sights) is permitted. Holsters and Gear: Holsters must meet IDPA criteria. A competitor's sidearm will be worn for all courses of fire. Competitors will wear their equipment and magazines/spare ammo in a manner consistent with continuous wear (mag pouches, shell loops, etc.). Bags and boxes containing ammo and gear are not allowed on the line or ready area. Mag pouches for the pistol shall suit the holster being used. Duty holsters require duty mag pouches. Mag pouches used with the concealable holster must be concealable as well and carry the mags reasonably tight against the body. Magazine pouches for the pistol or rifle may leave no more than 50% of the magazine protruding from the magazine carrier. This 50% limit includes all portions of the magazine including any base pads. Both rifle and pistol carriers must protect the magazine feed lips. Skeletonized magazine carriers (i.e. IPSC types which do not cover all sides of the magazine, spring clip types, etc.) are not allowed. Devices to hold a spare magazine to the rifle or to the magazine in use must protect the magazine feed lips and must keep dirt out of the spare magazine or a separate protector must be used. Ammunition: All contestants are required to shoot full power ammo in this competition. Shotguns must be 12 gauge Buckshot (#4 buck or larger) No Slugs. Carbine ammo will be copper plated FMJ and may not be tracer, steel core or armor piercing.

June 1, 2002, 12:30 AM	#5
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Interesting rules, I see it says carbines. I shoot a 21 inch barreled FAL in 3 gun. Not exactly your typical carbine. Some of the big time matches have weight restrictions on rifles as well. Like the SWAT magazine world championship match, but I think the limit there is 11 pounds for those of us shooting FALs, M1as, and AR10s. The weight limit is one rule I would probably ditch if I was in charge. Sure you could have a 14 pound .223 rifle, and sure it would have no recoil, but then again, most stages have lots of close targets that will most likely be engaged free hand. I don't think they would get very far ahead that way.

June 5, 2002, 07:26 PM	#7
Markk9 Member Join Date: March 18, 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 91	Andrew, The Thompson in 45ACP is a military carbine, used by the US in WWII and Korea. Mark

June 6, 2002, 02:07 PM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	Andrew, that is a valid point that I had not considered. But it would be interesting to compete with a BAR or BREN. I will be shooting in the WC3gun this year. (L1a1 FAL, 870, 1911) I'm looking forward to it. This will be my first time shooting in a match of that quality, and I'm very excited.

June 7, 2002, 11:09 PM	#9
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	I find this whole idea of using a pistol caliber rifle in a 3 gun match intriguing. admittedly, I don't do any IPSC or IDPA shooting but both the SWAT Magazine WC 3 gun and the SCTC matches i shoot in semi regularly have rifle targets out as far as 300+ yards. It seems sheer folly to use a pistol caliber gun at ranges like that. do other 3 gun matches use all three guns on pistol courses or something like that? as for shooting brens and BARs in the match, I actually conversed with my dad about that, and they're generally considered to be crew served weapons. I personally think it would be suitably manly to compete with a BAR, and if i had one and it was legal, i'd do it myself. There is no restriction against military bolt action rifles. we've never had someone shoot the match with a bolt gun, but I think it would be neat if someone showed up with their lee enfield number 4 mk1(t) I'm sure it'd pass review as a combat worthy and legal for WC3 gun rifle and scope combination.

June 10, 2002, 08:45 AM	#10
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I think most local 3 gun matches are probably limited by range space to 100 yard shots.

June 13, 2002, 06:40 AM	#12
Markk9 Member Join Date: March 18, 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 91	Andrew, At the club that shoots the three gun, it's a carbine match. Read the rules in the above post the three weapons are: pistol, carbine, and shotgun. If I had to shoot out to three hundred then yes I would switch to a 300 fireball (221 fireball necked up to .30 cal). Mark

June 14, 2002, 06:01 PM	#13
Andrew Wyatt Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2002 Location: Bakersfield, Kommiefornia Posts: 549	what's the definition of a carbine according to your club's rules? Most carbines i see are rifles with shorter barrels, but still in a rifle caliber.